Is monk dps really this bad?

[Deleted]

Monk DPS is fine, it'll get better, it's a new class so it's being tweaked as we speak. Tiger Palm buff will help a little.

P.S. I'm very rarely outside of the top 3 on our fights

[twinkleblur]

my main is an ele shaman and im leveling a monk i lie playing both. theres nothing wrong with either class it really depends on the player....find the class that fits you the best not the class you think you should be playing. the thing is not everyone is cut out to play the class there playing.

[Schaden]

Its a pretty complicated situation right now. As some have said, there is a steep learning curve for the spec. Its very button-mashy at times and its easy to mistime your CDs. The class has no cleave and no ability to multi dot which is crippling in Vaults and its fights like Guardians, Elegon and Will of the Emperor. We also have a very awkward wind up phase at every fight that's getting addressed next patch. Our burst is very dependent upon TeB stacks and timing them right so as to not waste any stacks by sitting on them.

However, I've noticed that Windwalker is a glacier spec, i.e., the longer a fight lasts, the better we do. TeB stacks comes come a lot more readily than most other class cooldowns, which off-sets our lack of opening burst/blow all CDs damage. Unfortunately, that inability to have burst on demand IS a weakness as well, and part of the reason top-end guilds are not bringing Windwalkers for progression content.

[Jayma]

I don't buy this learning curve stuff for windwalker pve. The ww rotation isn't that hard and I don't think any decent player is going to make huge rotation mistakes that other classes aren't making.
It's pretty clear what WW is and isn't good at already.

Good mobility
Good defensive cooldowns for dps standards
Damage more consistent than most classes
Some scaling mechanical issues with haste and mastery
Average single target dps
Solid AoE
Basically Zero Cleave

[Secrecy]

Its a pretty complicated situation right now. As some have said, there is a steep learning curve for the spec. Its very button-mashy at times and its easy to mistime your CDs. The class has no cleave and no ability to multi dot which is crippling in Vaults and its fights like Guardians, Elegon and Will of the Emperor. We also have a very awkward wind up phase at every fight that's getting addressed next patch. Our burst is very dependent upon TeB stacks and timing them right so as to not waste any stacks by sitting on them.

However, I've noticed that Windwalker is a glacier spec, i.e., the longer a fight lasts, the better we do. TeB stacks comes come a lot more readily than most other class cooldowns, which off-sets our lack of opening burst/blow all CDs damage. Unfortunately, that inability to have burst on demand IS a weakness as well, and part of the reason top-end guilds are not bringing Windwalkers for progression content.

Unfortunately, without changes, we're not going to get any better this tier as our set bonuses are so bad we're going to start slipping when other classes get theirs.

[Totaltotemic]

Simcraft says WW should be middle of the pack. Unfortunately, due to FoF being completely useless above 15% haste, it's quite a bit lower than that in reality. Bugs are cool.

[Alhoon]

Simcraft says WW should be middle of the pack. Unfortunately, due to FoF being completely useless above 15% haste, it's quite a bit lower than that in reality. Bugs are cool.

This is already on top of the fact that FoF is entirely useless in 85% of the fights.

[morbidone]

Simcraft says WW should be middle of the pack. Unfortunately, due to FoF being completely useless above 15% haste, it's quite a bit lower than that in reality. Bugs are cool.

Whats the buff at 15%? Is that 15% personal haste, or with the buff?

[Totaltotemic]

Whats the buff at 15%? Is that 15% personal haste, or with the buff?

Total haste, not melee attack speed (the buff does not provide haste and thus doesn't affect channel times or energy regen). I think the number is around 13 or 14% actually, but I confirmed it myself on a target dummy with a trinket proc. When I went from 10% to 15% haste, FoF only ticked 4 times. Repeatedly, over several trials. This is because haste reduces the channel time of FoF, but does not reduce the length between ticks, causing haste to not only lack its normal benefit, but it actually reduces the total damage once you start losing a tick.

[Dedweight]

I don't think our damage is that bad really, I know my damage isn't as great as it should be on a lot of raid fights(average somewhere between 55-60k) though I contribute most of that to us still progressing through Normal MSV(2/6 right now) so on some of the fights I'm probably moving a hell of a lot more than I should be.

[Draahl]

Realistic DPS Chart check this out on theorycrafted dps where the different specs are. But as blizzard says Monk DPS has a really high learning curve compared to all the other classes.

[Totaltotemic]

But as blizzard says Monk DPS has a really high learning curve compared to all the other classes.

The only learning curve in WW DPS is Tigerye Brew. Aside from that mechanic, the core 4 abilities are extremely simple to figure out how to use. Aside from "don't waste TEB stacks" and "use TEB with procs and cooldowns", there isn't much of a variation in potential DPS from TEB usage anyways. Blizzard likes to think that they created a complex rotation, when what they really created is stats capping out relatively early, a worthless mastery, and a bugged core ability that's irritating to use even when it does work right.

[morbidone]

Realistic DPS Chart check this out on theorycrafted dps where the different specs are. But as blizzard says Monk DPS has a really high learning curve compared to all the other classes.

Why is the frost mage ahead of the fire mage? I haven't seen frost ever come close to fire on charts...
Subtly is somehow the best for rogue?! And rogues in general suck ass.... WTF

This realistic sim is a fucking joke...
I got some realistic sims!! Its called raidbots and WoL!

Now that is real. That sim and that chart is nothing more than a bad joke.

[Deleted]

Frost is the best pve spec for mages atm, deal with it.
ot: It seems to me that ww is one of the higher dps, only problems are that they barely have any burst and can't cleave

[Draahl]

Why is the frost mage ahead of the fire mage? I haven't seen frost ever come close to fire on charts...
Subtly is somehow the best for rogue?! And rogues in general suck ass.... WTF

This realistic sim is a fucking joke...
I got some realistic sims!! Its called raidbots and WoL!

Now that is real. That sim and that chart is nothing more than a bad joke.

I know you didnt really read noxxic's notes on the theorycrafting so ill post it for you here.

These DPS estimates are based on a modified "Helter Skelter" style single target (no cleave) fight with frequent movement, raid-wide stuns, interrupts, boss invulnerability, player distraction, and target switching. This is a more realistic fight that highlights each specs maximum DPS under typical raid conditions. The Helter Skelter simulation is run across 10000 iterations with a variable fight length of 360 - 540 sec and a non-optimal use of raid buffs.

This means that fire mage will be behind, since it is an awesome cleave spec. On bosses like stone guardians fire is vastly superior to the other two specs.

Now as someone else said the real problem is the lack of burst for WW Monk and i completely agree, on fights where we can have steady dps the entire fight we are quite competative. Constant target switching or boss immune fights where we have to wait abit to dps we are complete shit tho, just check Blade Lord Ta'yak in Heart Of Fear. A fight that requires high burst to be able to do great dps as a melee(worlds smallest hitbox on a boss ever).

[morbidone]

Ohh I read it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's version of reality is a match for reality.

Reality says that,
Fire is ahead by at least 10% on every fight I look at.
Subt blows

Etc..

The results from actual raiding, and what that simulator spit out are way off. Now who are you going to believe?
A sim that doesn't correctly model current raids, or data from raids?

Just go ahead and block that website.

[Stuffs]

Ohh I read it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's version of reality is a match for reality.

Reality says that,
Fire is ahead by at least 10% on every fight I look at.
Subt blows

Etc..

The results from actual raiding, and what that simulator spit out are way off. Now who are you going to believe?
A sim that doesn't correctly model current raids, or data from raids?

Just go ahead and block that website.

Its not so much that, but different classes line up with different mechanics. Put a melee on a fight with sub 100% uptime, and he goes down. Put a combat rogue on a fight with a significant portion of cleave, and he goes up. And on and on.

Theory and practice are both very much relevant, and are both factors to heed.

[morbidone]

Its not so much that, but different classes line up with different mechanics. Put a melee on a fight with sub 100% uptime, and he goes down. Put a combat rogue on a fight with a significant portion of cleave, and he goes up. And on and on.

Theory and practice are both very much relevant, and are both factors to heed.

Very much true. Except in the case of that website, we don't have theory or practice, but the theory of practice. Which is utter nonsense!

[Deleted]

In my opinion it's strong, our monk is always first on dps meters and it's not like everyone else doesn't know how to play their class. In my opinion there is just overall more QQ about monk dps because of too many rerolling and having to learn the class again. The same thing happened with the DKs afaik and they were ridiculously buffed to counter how bad players were playing them at start. I think it will smooth out in the long road and that's why blizz doesn't make too many changes to the specc.

[Alhoon]

In my opinion it's strong, our monk is always first on dps meters and it's not like everyone else doesn't know how to play their class. In my opinion there is just overall more QQ about monk dps because of too many rerolling and having to learn the class again. The same thing happened with the DKs afaik and they were ridiculously buffed to counter how bad players were playing them at start. I think it will smooth out in the long road and that's why blizz doesn't make too many changes to the specc.

And I thought flaming and trolling was against the rules.