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  1. #1
    Pit Lord Malgru's Avatar
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    Lack of consistency in CCs among classes.

    Why do shamans have 1 skillshot CC and 1 castable CC, which can be dispelled by dps? Why doesn't fear break on damage? Why does Poly not have a CD but Freezing Trap does (and you have to use 2 abilities to land it)? Why does blanket CS provide a 4s silence on a 24s, when Strangulate provides a 5s silence on a 1-2min CD? Why do holy paladins have 3 CCs but priests have 1? Why do priests still not have an interrupt? Why does silencing shot give a 3s lockout on a 20s CD, but CS/Spell Lock gives a 7s lockout on a 24s CD? Why is shockwave a 4s stun on a 20s CD and Deep a 5s stun on a 30s CD, but Intimidation is a 3s stun on a 1 minute CD?

    I'm not complaining about a certain class or wanting a buff to my class. If it did, I apologize. I play a hunter, we're overpowered, and I'm aware. I'd just like to see some consistency among the CCs...

  2. #2
    Because classes are different?

    Im just guessing

  3. #3
    Classes are different. There would be no point if everyone had the same tools.
    Comparing different classes abilities is very much pointless. Some have something that others dont.
    Example. Freezing trap is instant and can be shot in place where it is also invisible. Polymorph has cast and heals the target to max in 3 seconds.

  4. #4
    Because classes synergize differently with their cc.

    Let's say, if a death knight had hammer of justice - imagine how overpowered would that be.
    Or frost mage having blood fear.

    I do agree however that some of those combinations are quite broken, such as warriors having shockwave and mages having both ring of frost, polymorph and a 24s cd blanket silence.

  5. #5
    I think we should not check the spells/skills alone we should check the class that use them and the reason it does.For example and since u are playing hunter,lets take the stronger spell in the game atm (chaos bolt) what mechanics u could possibly use in order to interupt/avoid this spell or take 1 good healing what spells u could possibly do to interupt or cc the healer.if 1 skill of urs is lower on duration than another and its the ONLY thing u can possibly do then yes i agree to ur thoughts.Back to chaos bolt u can dette,silencing shot,stun from pet,scatter shot, feint death ( not sure if still works) for healers u can trap them,silence,stun,scatter.Imo they are too much

  6. #6
    I'm not so sure he's arguing that every class should have the same CCs. I think he's more saying why is it that mages, for example, get a way more potent blanket silence than all other classes (save warriors probably with Gag Order.)

    The problem with all the CC is the rampant disregard with which it has been handed out, to the point of the few classes who didn't get a load of new CC tools are left in the dust. Like rogues, everyone pretty much caught up to them in terms of pvp lockdown potential, and now I believe they are the lowest represented class for 3v3 above 2200 rating. Pvp has turned into a CC arms race, and it has made for an extremely ugly game to play.

    Where the hell is the fun in not controlling your character for 1/4 of every minute, if not more depending on a teams coordination? To hell with CC consistency, it ALL needs to be reigned in.

  7. #7
    I would like to point out that fear does brake on damage and (unless they've changed it) has a lower damage tolerance than both hex and poly.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlikemyrage View Post
    Where the hell is the fun in not controlling your character for 1/4 of every minute, if not more depending on a teams coordination? To hell with CC consistency, it ALL needs to be reigned in.
    Amen. Blizz has let homogenization go too far. As a rogue it really ticks me off because we're probably the most borrowed-from class in the game. Rogues were the first to have Sprint...now it feels like every class can pick one up. Stuns used to be associated with rogues...other classes had maybe one stun...rogues had two. Now it seems like every class has at least one, and a few others, like warriors, have two. Almost every class has some sort of pet or summonable gaurdian now. Every class has to have a heal. Every class needs x, y, and z! They turned everyone into a one-man army, so I'm not surprised that pvp is all jacked up.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Harsesis View Post
    I would like to point out that fear does brake on damage and (unless they've changed it) has a lower damage tolerance than both hex and poly.
    I thought poly broke on first damage, unless they added a threshold to it when I wasn't looking...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlikemyrage View Post
    I thought poly broke on first damage, unless they added a threshold to it when I wasn't looking...
    it still does

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Amen. Blizz has let homogenization go too far. As a rogue it really ticks me off because we're probably the most borrowed-from class in the game. Rogues were the first to have Sprint...now it feels like every class can pick one up. Stuns used to be associated with rogues...other classes had maybe one stun...rogues had two. Now it seems like every class has at least one, and a few others, like warriors, have two. Almost every class has some sort of pet or summonable gaurdian now. Every class has to have a heal. Every class needs x, y, and z! They turned everyone into a one-man army, so I'm not surprised that pvp is all jacked up.
    The bolded part really pisses me off. Because now I have to sit and suffer through the endless QQ because I picked Second Wind on my warrior. As if it's my fault that blizzard made the other two talents complete garbage for pvp, I should play fairly and not get the best self-heal, even though Second Wind is only truly broken 1v1...

    Just get rid of all the damn healing abilities alltogether. I liked it better when I fought stuff and knew that their HP was as finite as the number it displayed (talking damage dealers here, of course you healers got to heal :P)

    Instead now I have to beat through every opponent as if it was a Wrath ret pally, with the 2 extra lives (lay on hands, bubble heal to full).

    What is even better, is Blizzard believes their own bullshit, just look at the latest blue posts about CC. Like are you serious? Yes, it takes the hunter's FULL attention to scatter-trap me, and then follow that up with the FULL attention of his partner for more CC. Of course, because they are wasting "so much time" cc'ing you, they couldn't possibly be also killing you or your partner while you stand their helplessly because you lost the CC arms race this time.

    Almost every one of my arena losses come because either I or my partner(s) were CC chained first. Almost all of my wins? You bet they came because I or my partner(s) CC chained first. That's not skill. That's simply who can hit their stun/silence/fear buttons the fastest.

    I agree with the blue that CC chains can be countered. What I don't agree with is that they can be countered successfully all the time. Let's look at a warlock for a second here. Warrior as an opponent. Lock opens with Mortal Coil. Warrior trinkets, probably throws out a gag order or reflect if the lock tries to fear. Okay, so you gag order it, cool, charge in and do damage. Oh but wait, warlock pet seduce. Now eat everything the lock has for a bit. K seduce breaks, now he tries to fear you. You have either gag order or SR left, whichever you didn't use. If you gag ordered the first time, cool, now SR that shit and go beat on him. But oh wait, he probably has a trinket for his own fear. So nvm there. But it's cool, you have shockwave and all your "OP CD Stacking." Nah fuck it, says the lock, go defensive for a sec, throw out a fear, lock portal, anything. Here comes the fear again out of the portal. Oh but it's cool I have MSR for it. Or maybe he doesn't fear, maybe he just seduces you again.... on and on...

    Point is, the whole fight turns into who CCs who for longer, leading to who wins. Yeah... Blizzard is just slow.

  12. #12
    Field Marshal fisayoolat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redlikemyrage View Post
    The bolded part really pisses me off. Because now I have to sit and suffer through the endless QQ because I picked Second Wind on my warrior. As if it's my fault that blizzard made the other two talents complete garbage for pvp, I should play fairly and not get the best self-heal, even though Second Wind is only truly broken 1v1...

    Just get rid of all the damn healing abilities alltogether. I liked it better when I fought stuff and knew that their HP was as finite as the number it displayed (talking damage dealers here, of course you healers got to heal :P)

    Instead now I have to beat through every opponent as if it was a Wrath ret pally, with the 2 extra lives (lay on hands, bubble heal to full).

    What is even better, is Blizzard believes their own bullshit, just look at the latest blue posts about CC. Like are you serious? Yes, it takes the hunter's FULL attention to scatter-trap me, and then follow that up with the FULL attention of his partner for more CC. Of course, because they are wasting "so much time" cc'ing you, they couldn't possibly be also killing you or your partner while you stand their helplessly because you lost the CC arms race this time.

    Almost every one of my arena losses come because either I or my partner(s) were CC chained first. Almost all of my wins? You bet they came because I or my partner(s) CC chained first. That's not skill. That's simply who can hit their stun/silence/fear buttons the fastest.

    I agree with the blue that CC chains can be countered. What I don't agree with is that they can be countered successfully all the time. Let's look at a warlock for a second here. Warrior as an opponent. Lock opens with Mortal Coil. Warrior trinkets, probably throws out a gag order or reflect if the lock tries to fear. Okay, so you gag order it, cool, charge in and do damage. Oh but wait, warlock pet seduce. Now eat everything the lock has for a bit. K seduce breaks, now he tries to fear you. You have either gag order or SR left, whichever you didn't use. If you gag ordered the first time, cool, now SR that shit and go beat on him. But oh wait, he probably has a trinket for his own fear. So nvm there. But it's cool, you have shockwave and all your "OP CD Stacking." Nah fuck it, says the lock, go defensive for a sec, throw out a fear, lock portal, anything. Here comes the fear again out of the portal. Oh but it's cool I have MSR for it. Or maybe he doesn't fear, maybe he just seduces you again.... on and on...

    Point is, the whole fight turns into who CCs who for longer, leading to who wins. Yeah... Blizzard is just slow.
    I agree and disagree because i realise that some classes or even most classes cant win without cc. if it was just a fight of just zerg one another, the class that pulls out its burst naturally in a quick manner is gonna always win . so to counter some op burst classes will need control. im not saying cc is fine , myb some rework can be done on some.......

  13. #13
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    I think Fear is supposed to break from damage, but the threshold is just too high. In otherwords, you need to do a lot of damage for fear to actually break.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fisayoolat View Post
    I agree and disagree because i realise that some classes or even most classes cant win without cc. if it was just a fight of just zerg one another, the class that pulls out its burst naturally in a quick manner is gonna always win . so to counter some op burst classes will need control. im not saying cc is fine , myb some rework can be done on some.......
    Yeah, I get your point for sure. I just think though, that all CC aside most classes have defensive abilities outside of CC with which to reduce damage, or flat out ignore it in some cases.

    I'd think you would find that even with less CC, people would still be able to live in smaller battles (arenas). But cutting out CC would have a much larger impact on BGs, which would also not be okay for me, but I could tolerate it if it meant less time sitting in CC in my arenas.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 04:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    I think Fear is supposed to break from damage, but the threshold is just too high. In otherwords, you need to do a lot of damage for fear to actually break.
    Noticed this as well. Guildie opened a ticket about it, GM responded with "working as intended." But I've seen several people say something about it, so it leads me to believe, unless the intended break point is much higher than in days past, it is anything but working as intended.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlikemyrage View Post
    I agree with the blue that CC chains can be countered. What I don't agree with is that they can be countered successfully all the time. Let's look at a warlock for a second here. Warrior as an opponent. Lock opens with Mortal Coil. Warrior trinkets, probably throws out a gag order or reflect if the lock tries to fear. Okay, so you gag order it, cool, charge in and do damage. Oh but wait, warlock pet seduce. Now eat everything the lock has for a bit. K seduce breaks, now he tries to fear you. You have either gag order or SR left, whichever you didn't use. If you gag ordered the first time, cool, now SR that shit and go beat on him. But oh wait, he probably has a trinket for his own fear. So nvm there. But it's cool, you have shockwave and all your "OP CD Stacking." Nah fuck it, says the lock, go defensive for a sec, throw out a fear, lock portal, anything. Here comes the fear again out of the portal. Oh but it's cool I have MSR for it. Or maybe he doesn't fear, maybe he just seduces you again.... on and on...

    Point is, the whole fight turns into who CCs who for longer, leading to who wins. Yeah... Blizzard is just slow.
    [Reason for reply: Pointing out you're a bad warrior]

    Warlock opens with Mortal Coil (Mortal Coil lasts 3 seconds).
    Warrior trinkets.
    Warrior uses Heroic Throw to silence the warlock (Silence lasts 3 seconds)
    Warlock's pet uses Seduce on the warrior (Seduce breaks on ANY damage taken)
    Warrior is free of control as soon as the first inc damage strikes him/her
    Warrior is now free to use Reflect, Mass Reflect, Charge(stun), Shockwave, Gag-Order (Pummel or Throw as the CD on both are low).
    If Warrior eats a fear, use Berserker Rage to immune it
    Lock portals to try to get warrior off of him/her (Portal if Glyphed is 24sec cooldown)
    Warrior can charge 2x per portal and can also Heroic Leap with a speed increase with more than double the frequency of a warlock's peels.

    I understand the point of your post, but a warrior complaining about a warlock's CC's is a bad warrior.

    Yes, I am a warlock, but if your counter is "Oh look, the warlock comes defending his OP'ness" then that further proves the point that you don't even know how to play your warrior.
    Magnificence personified

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    [Reason for reply: Pointing out you're a bad warrior]

    Warlock opens with Mortal Coil (Mortal Coil lasts 3 seconds).
    Warrior trinkets.
    Warrior uses Heroic Throw to silence the warlock (Silence lasts 3 seconds)
    Warlock's pet uses Seduce on the warrior (Seduce breaks on ANY damage taken)
    Warrior is free of control as soon as the first inc damage strikes him/her
    Warrior is now free to use Reflect, Mass Reflect, Charge(stun), Shockwave, Gag-Order (Pummel or Throw as the CD on both are low).
    If Warrior eats a fear, use Berserker Rage to immune it
    Lock portals to try to get warrior off of him/her (Portal if Glyphed is 24sec cooldown)
    Warrior can charge 2x per portal and can also Heroic Leap with a speed increase with more than double the frequency of a warlock's peels.

    I understand the point of your post, but a warrior complaining about a warlock's CC's is a bad warrior.

    Yes, I am a warlock, but if your counter is "Oh look, the warlock comes defending his OP'ness" then that further proves the point that you don't even know how to play your warrior.
    Oh no, you misunderstand, the point here wasn't really for me to come across as picking on any one class or whatever. I picked warrior because it would be my main, and the class I've played the most. And I picked lock because Warriors counter locks easily, plus my buddy mains one so I know a bit about their abilites and how they work, though admittedly not wholly. Would've been hard for me to any comparison for any other class as I'm not sure what they've got.

    And no, I'm not even going to come with the "warlock defending his OP'ness." I would be lying if I said, as a warrior, I don't kill warlocks more often than not.

    My general point was just that CCs are ridiculous and if you aren't up there with the amount of counters and CCs of your own, as you've pointed out warriors have, then you are usually boned.

    Either way, thanks for trying to tell me I'm bad for just making a point about CC's being ridiculous. I'm sure it makes you feel better. Good thing my post had nothing to do with the two classes discussed, and more to do with the whole CC arms race thing.

    Next time you want to attack someone for being bad, try realizing that I was simply trying to draw a picture of the CC race, not say one class or another is OP or better or whatever. Just relax, it's okay, no one is saying your precious lock is OP. :P

  17. #17
    Due apologies, the example you provided didn't give the best example to display the plethora of CC's in WoW, nor the CC race.

    If you're familiar with the warlock toolkit, they are the only class ingame that has lost CC from the transition of Cataclysm into Mists of Pandaria.

    If talking specifically about destruction (as that spec had the most CC), in cataclysm;

    Cata
    Howl of Terror (AoE fear)
    Shadowfury (20sec CD AoE 3second stun)
    Fear
    Deathcoil (2minutes 3 second horror)

    MoP
    Howl of Terror or Mortal coil (45sec CD) or Shadowfury (now 30sec CD)
    Fear or Blood Fear (instant, 10sec CD)

    If you had picked ANY other class ingame, yes, you would see that CC has increased massively.

    [Edit] I forgot to mention Seduce and Fear share the same Diminishing Returns, so although a warlock can choose to seduce you, it is only good so far as he can use it while he himself is CC'd.

    Seduce, same DR as fear, breaks on any damage, requires succubus to channel (easy to interrupt by teammate).
    Last edited by qu1rex; 2012-11-09 at 10:06 PM.
    Magnificence personified

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    Due apologies, the example you provided didn't give the best example to display the plethora of CC's in WoW, nor the CC race.

    If you're familiar with the warlock toolkit, they are the only class ingame that has lost CC from the transition of Cataclysm into Mists of Pandaria.

    If talking specifically about destruction (as that spec had the most CC), in cataclysm;

    Cata
    Howl of Terror (AoE fear)
    Shadowfury (20sec CD AoE 3second stun)
    Fear
    Deathcoil (2minutes 3 second horror)

    MoP
    Howl of Terror or Mortal coil (45sec CD) or Shadowfury (now 30sec CD)
    Fear or Blood Fear (instant, 10sec CD)

    If you had picked ANY other class ingame, yes, you would see that CC has increased massively.

    [Edit] I forgot to mention Seduce and Fear share the same Diminishing Returns, so although a warlock can choose to seduce you, it is only good so far as he can use it while he himself is CC'd.

    Seduce, same DR as fear, breaks on any damage, requires succubus to channel (easy to interrupt by teammate).
    Right you are, I was indeed unaware of the changes from Cata to MoP for warlocks. I was also unaware of the subtleties with the DR on fear and seduce. So admittedly, I may not have chosen the best examples. However, I think we can all agree that the wide amount of CC being thrown around to any and all classes has indeed turned this into a CC arms race. And maybe that is their whole design philosophy, as I seem to remember a blue making the statement like "the meta game has changed."

    It's possible that this is what they meant by change, but I still don't like it. I hate not being able to control my character for extended periods of time. Of course, this is blatently more obvious in BGs and larger scale pvp battles than arenas, but BGs are suppose to be the "fun," relaxing pvp game. Nothing fun about it, though, as me, being a warrior, get CC'ed the instant I show up to any battle.

    All analysis and subjective opinions aside, I cannot fathom how anyone playing the game can be happy with the amount of time they spend not controlling their character in pvp.

  19. #19
    As soon as I saw Fist of Justice, Blood Fear and Shockwave as talent choices in the beta, I knew this shit would happen. 1 min cooldowns on stuns is something I could deal with. 20 sec cooldowns on stuns on any class other than a rogue is mindbogglingly stupid. Cooldowns should be at least doubled. Don't get me started on instant fears, even Reinhart thinks it's completely retarded. A 5 year old could see this CC shitstorm coming.

    For the first time since I started playing in TBC, I've lost the urge to do any PvP...even as a feral druid.

  20. #20
    the DR system needs to be overhauled.

    its ok for RMP to have sheep,fear and cheap shot all on diffrent DRs.
    but its not ok for PHS to have trap, repentance and hex all on the same DR?

    that doesn't make any sense...
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

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