1. #481
    The Patient
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    [Prot] Fix My Tanking

    Armory Link: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Stormreaver/capta%C3%AFn/advanced
    Alternate Specs/Glyphs: I ran with Glyph of Divine Protection, Battle Healer, Alabaster Shield. I used Light's Hammer, because I thought the healing component would be useful; I didn't realize how easy the last would be to heal once Roshak is dead.
    Worldoflogs Link: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dxne062gw7lozai6/sum/damageDone/?s=5657&e=6270
    And the individual break down of my damage: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dxne062gw7lozai6/details/4/?s=5657&e=6270
    Questions, concerns, expectations: We killed Heroic Iron Qon last night single tanking, and I noticed I did a lot less damage than the paladins who have ranked. I realize that a lot of factors go into determining rankings, but I still feel like I’m playing sub par.

    It is worth noting that I am using suboptimal gear, considering that I was not sure how the last phase would be with all four hostiles up. Therefore, I went with the Paladin four piece (which actually returned a decent amount of holy power); furthermore, because I was not sure of how badly the last phase would stress the healers, I also took Soul Barrier and the expertise/heal trinket from Ji-Kun (I realize how bad it is.) .

    Still, I was able to get 11,670 haste in the gear.

    Description of Playstyle: I play more safer than I probably should. While I use my HoPo generators on cooldown, I do heal myself if I'm dipping below 70%. I suppose that is a waste of Holy Power. But regardless, my abilities don't seem to be hitting as hard so I'm kind of confused >.<.


    Any help would be appreciated!

  2. #482
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptJSparrow View Post
    snipped
    Your Sacred Shield (47%) uptime is really bad. Should be your Nr 1 Heal. Doesn't really affect your DPS (it will probably hurt it, cause you will need to spend more globals on SS) - just wanted to point it out.
    Couple of posts back my Uptime of 86% was described as "could be better". So 47% is really really bad.

    Your SotR uptime seems good. It's about 2-3% better than mine with the same haste values. Don't think you lost too many to WoG, since you only used WoG 4 times in 10 minutes.

    Rest of the buffs seems ok (2 potions, 4 wrath, 5 avenger, 8 synapse springs). Could have been 10 Springs though and 6 Avenger.

    You don't use the DPS legendary meta Gem. Couple of posts back it was mentioned that it is about 10% DPS gain.

    Also, you mentioned that you used Soul Barrier/Ji-Kun Heal. Other Paladins probably used Spark of Zandalar/Ji-Kun Str or Valor Exp/Str Trinket - which both are a significant DPS boost over your 2 trinkets.

    11.7k Haste is not "that" much. I have already reached that Value in 511 Sub-par tanking Gear. The ranking Paladins probably got alot more.

    Here is a Compare Log with Nairobi's last Iron Qon Kill:

    http://raidbots.com/comparebot/518a01dd74254e9f240003f6

    Note: He didn't rank either, but he pulled 50k more DPS than you. So I wouldn't worry too much about it.

    ---

    Comparing the logs you will soon see a few things:

    - You are prioritzing Cons. too high and Holy Wrath too low
    - Even though you had more SotR, his hit harder due to better stats
    - 12 Million Meta Gem DPS is not neglectible
    - He clears Impale waaaay later than you do. 12 mio vs 22 mio Damage taken. That transfers into aloooot of more vengeance.
    - Look at that Sacred Shield Healing. 9 Mio more. Almost perfect Uptime with 96%.
    - That alone makes up for the increased Impale Damage. So I guess I was wrong above when I said, SS doesnt affect your DPS - not on Iron Qon.
    - 13 Hand of Purity to reduce even more Impale Damage for extra Vengeance.
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-05-08 at 08:12 AM.

  3. #483
    The Patient
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    Thank you so much for the tips!

    I wasn't clearing Impale later because our warrior had mentioned 3 was the stack we should clear at when we had him tank it :/. we kicked him though, I guess I should have thought about it a bit more.


    I actually made two Sacred Shield weak auras today so I could have better visibility on it--- so I'm glad I at least thought of one thing I could do better.

    As for the Holy Wrath, I had no idea it was supposed to be higher on priority :/. I must have missed that fine point. Again, appreciated!

  4. #484
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    You're welcome Captain!

    Thanks Nairobi again for your fast response. Still have one unanswered question though:

    Does the Healing increase with Damage or with AP? Is my rotation/dps output/weapon affecting the healing or is it purely AP based?
    Judging from the tooltip I would say AP based - but I still wanted to make sure.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    You're welcome Captain!

    Thanks Nairobi again for your fast response. Still have one unanswered question though:

    Does the Healing increase with Damage or with AP? Is my rotation/dps output/weapon affecting the healing or is it purely AP based?
    Judging from the tooltip I would say AP based - but I still wanted to make sure.
    SoI and WoG is AP based, BH is damage based (indirectly AP based since AP increases your damage).
    SS is also AP based. All except WoG ofc scales with haste aswell.

    However, while the SoI heals are AP based, SoI is still rotation based as SoI procs of your attacks, so the better your rotation is, the more attacks you will get off, the more procs you will get, so SoI is both AP and rotation based. Same goes with haste, the more haste you got, the more white melee hits, the more SoI procs.

    Same goes with BH ofc, the better rotation, the more damage you do, the more BH heals.

    I really hated when they nerfed SoI with HotR (the nerf was fine, the AoE cleave was bullshit and should be nerfed ofc), however it removed a fun part of tanking for me. Previously HotR used on 1 target could proc 2 SoI procs, so on single target you had the active choice, either I use CS for more damage, or HotR for less damage but a chance at 2 procs, which to me was fun making that active decision between damage and healing. Sad they changed that.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-08 at 09:57 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #486
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Thanks for clearing that up for me!

    Might be a good thing to add to the Paladin Sticky Guide here on the Forums if anyone capable of that reads this post.

    I just recently (about 3 weeks ago) rerolled from Blood DK to Prot Paladin and I couldn't find this information in the stickies on EJ, Icy and here on MMO.

    Might be possible that I just missed it though

  7. #487
    Ooops, neglected this thread between raiding last night and work this morning. Glad to see Firefly chimed in to answer.

    I need to step up my game for IQ parsing, but we're in the process of 2 re-rolls right now (a healer to a dps, and a dps to a healer), so I have to play a bit more conservatively. I probably SHOULD start to play with DP over HA when trying to rank given my haste levels, but UGH I hate that talent. Just feels bad to be doing "well" and still come in only in the top 50

    Please feel free to pick apart last night's logs: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-i8ooam0jhhx6ms1e/

    Had an issue with parsing where only a few fights showed up....cleared first 7 on heroic and only have like 3 parses. And yes, I know Ji-Kun was stupid...was trying to soak up some puddles with HoPur to clear real estate and got 2 more that landed on me. 650k+ in 0.5 seconds, and I didn't survive; WTF HEALS?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #488
    For the reference regarding dmg priority :

    While i haven't updated it in a while (5.0 / 5.1 (?)) I think it should still be fine.

  9. #489
    I feel like a retard for looking at the spread thinking how Hammer of Wrath pulls ahead on 9 targets before realising it was HotR

    Also, should note on single target that clipping a consecrate is never worth it unless you got no other global available.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #490
    Geez, I apparently need to Consecrate more/higher in the priority, thought it was below J on DPET. Oops.

    Pro's and con's to minor glyph: Focused Wrath? Thinking this would be great for most all fights in TOT (minus Council), assuming it hits your primary target (and not something random like a bat/turtle/warbear/whatever). Basically a DPS-glyph in a minor slot. Yes or no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    For the reference regarding dmg priority :

    While i haven't updated it in a while (5.0 / 5.1 (?)) I think it should still be fine.
    Does glyphed HW pull ahead on targets under 20%?

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    For the reference regarding dmg priority :

    While i haven't updated it in a while (5.0 / 5.1 (?)) I think it should still be fine.
    This may be a dumb question, but in a (normal) single-target tanking situation, shouldn't we prioritize our HoPo generators over HW, Cons, and a non-HoPo generating AS?

    Whenever my HW and CS come up at the same time, I'm always conflicted as to which I should prioritize.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This may be a dumb question, but in a (normal) single-target tanking situation, shouldn't we prioritize our HoPo generators over HW, Cons, and a non-HoPo generating AS?

    Whenever my HW and CS come up at the same time, I'm always conflicted as to which I should prioritize.
    His chart is showing the abilities in terms of DPET, not with respect to rotation/ShotR. You SHOULD prioritize HoPo-generators over all, but in terms of "fillers" that is the best priority list.

    Hope that answers your question. If CS and HW are up, always use CS (unless you're doing farm content and/or trying to rank); gotta remember that ShotR will likely always be your top or #2 damage ability, so neglecting that for Consecrate is a net loss for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This may be a dumb question, but in a (normal) single-target tanking situation, shouldn't we prioritize our HoPo generators over HW, Cons, and a non-HoPo generating AS?

    Whenever my HW and CS come up at the same time, I'm always conflicted as to which I should prioritize.
    For survival purposes, HoPo generators > everything else. For dps purposes...well, it'd be interesting to see how the dps of shield compares (I'm sure that number exists somewhere...) to see if maintaining HoPo generation is best for dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    For survival purposes, HoPo generators > everything else. For dps purposes...well, it'd be interesting to see how the dps of shield compares (I'm sure that number exists somewhere...) to see if maintaining HoPo generation is best for dps.
    I know a lot of people like/swear by DivPurp, but I still don't like it. I usually use HA, and under that HoPo gen's get a 30% buff (not sure if GC-AS counts; I've heard conflicting reports. Though, I HAVE seen a 900k+ GC-AS on the pull, so I am assuming it does...) AND funnel in shields as fast as you can use them.

    That said, I too would really like to see if someone can model DPET for our abilities while factoring in ShotR casts/uptime. You'd have to model for HA vs DP (vs SW for Firefly), which could get messy, but it'd def be an interesting read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This may be a dumb question, but in a (normal) single-target tanking situation, shouldn't we prioritize our HoPo generators over HW, Cons, and a non-HoPo generating AS?

    Whenever my HW and CS come up at the same time, I'm always conflicted as to which I should prioritize.
    There are some situations where you can prioritize higher dps abilities over hopo generators. It is totally dependent on the fight, your familiarity with said fight, and how how you feel you can survive to squeeze out a bit more damage at the cost of survivability.



  17. #497
    I was in the same boat as you Nairobi, I did not like DP because it feels very weird and random, I simply did not like it. However in ToT I started trying it on some fights, and gotta say, I love it now after using it for some time.
    For me I make the simple choice, do I need an extra cooldown? No? DP Yes? SW
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    His chart is showing the abilities in terms of DPET, not with respect to rotation/ShotR. You SHOULD prioritize HoPo-generators over all, but in terms of "fillers" that is the best priority list.

    Hope that answers your question. If CS and HW are up, always use CS (unless you're doing farm content and/or trying to rank); gotta remember that ShotR will likely always be your top or #2 damage ability, so neglecting that for Consecrate is a net loss for example.
    Got it. Makes sense.

    Nairobi - I'm actually in the same boat as you regarding HA vs DP. I'm just a fan of having an on-demand SoTR chain. Have you ever tried DP?

    I suppose this is for anyone who uses/tried DP: what makes this talent desirable for tanking? The RNG nature of the talent turns me off as a good deal of tanking is reactionary.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I suppose this is for anyone who uses/tried DP: what makes this talent desirable for tanking? The RNG nature of the talent turns me off as a good deal of tanking is reactionary.
    You can play around the RNG. Whenever you do not need an extra cooldown, DP is just so good, other than the increased damage, it just works so well. Say you get a luck streak of 2-3 procs in a row (I even had 7-8 procs in a row), it allows you to hold your next SotR allowing you to bank up hopo, so say you are at 3 hopo, use SotR, proceed to get 2 procs, you then get a 9 second SotR total. After it falls off you should have breathing room to hold in your next SotR allowing you to bank up atleast 5 HoPo or even 5+1 (Having CS/J off cooldown and having 5 hopo), allowing you to continue with a long SotR.

    But yeah, of course, if the fight requires a big cooldown for a high damage phase, naturally I opt into SW instead of DP, but really, I have not used SW for a few weeks.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I feel like a retard for looking at the spread thinking how Hammer of Wrath pulls ahead on 9 targets before realising it was HotR

    Also, should note on single target that clipping a consecrate is never worth it unless you got no other global available.
    Afaik they stack together. (Never got enough haste to be able to drop 3 at once tho)

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