Will the GOP admit and then adapt to their loss?

[Spectral]

Here's a perfect example...

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/01/o...y-hhs-mandate/

The democrats now make the case that they have the right to tell any business which makes a profit that they must abandon their personal views. Contraception is already provided free of charge by dozens of private and government funded organizations...getting it as a private citizen was never a problem before and after Sandra Fluke came along. Now the government is essentially saying that businesses have zero first-amendment rights...does that really not trouble you at all? Does it really not bother you that the government can force a private citizen and private business to adopt a particular worldview? It's tyrannical, un-American and a complete attack on the idea of religious freedom.

If you are OK with this then I'd simply ask how you'd feel if a republican administration banned the sale of contraceptives by all private businesses (which has never been suggested) or if they made physical fitness mandatory for everyone over 250 lbs. You would rightly say the government has no place telling people these things...and I'd say the same thing to you.

This is an absolutely perfect of example of a Republican saying, "if I can't stop someone from doing something, I'm being oppressed!". No one's forcing religious people to take birth control, they're simply saying that they don't get to pick and choose what basic healthcare services are provided in employer health care plans.

[Obamatheone]

Obviously the exception is the choice to harm others.

Where I want to send my kids to school, whether or not to join a union, whether or not to drink a large soft drink; that should be a choice.

My tax $$ pays for all those choices.
Thus, its not all about you, and the public has to be considered as well.

You are merely one component in a huge socio-technical system. If you think your choices don't matter, or don't effect others, then there isn't much to say but you are dead wrong. There is no such thing as a 100% personal choice that only affects you.

[Riidii]

This is an absolutely perfect of example of a Republican saying, "if I can't stop someone from doing something, I'm being oppressed!". No one's forcing religious people to take birth control, they're simply saying that they don't get to pick and choose what basic healthcare services are provided in employer health care plans.

So now a business doesn't have the choice to not buy abortion drugs?

[smelltheglove]

even if i work for you, YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MY HEALTHCARE. you being my employer doesnt give you the right to know or dictate a fucking thing pertaining to my healthcare.

i seriously dont know how many other ways to put this. not allowing you to invade my privacy or take away my rights is NOT taking rights from you. me not sharing your religion is NOT me attacking your religion

[Riidii]

My tax $$ pays for all those choices.
Thus, its not all about you, and the public has to be considered as well.

You are merely one component in a huge socio-technical system. If you think your choices don't matter, or don't effect others, then there isn't much to say but you are dead wrong. There is no such thing as a 100% personal choice that only affects you.

You pay tax dollars if I buy a large soda?

How do you assume every soda drinker is obese?

[offthewall]

It seems that the republican party has been in denial for a very long time on a number of issues. Denial about education, denial about America no longer being the "greatest country on earth", America being a Christian nation (it isn't), Denial about evolution, Global warming, the age of the planet, and a plethora of other scientific issues.

Watching the GOP play the blame game and scapegoat everything from the hurricaine, to Romney being a weak candidate, to America full of black and latino voters who "want free shit" has made me realize that they are still in denial. Do you guys think the republican party will admit that they lost based on their ideas being out of touch with the country and change their platform to be more inclusive instead of exclusive? Or will they continue business as usual and further alienate women voters by promising laws limiting their control of their bodies, pressing more de-regulation of banks and big business, and further pursuing their losing platform of 2012?

LOL spoken like a true Democrat. If you seriously think that all republicans want to control women and and their bodies then you sir are out of touch. As far as the banks go. Both parties can share the blame for that one.

[Spectral]

So now a business doesn't have the choice to not buy abortion drugs?

They don't have the choice to pick and choose what basic health services are provided in health care plans, no. Or they shouldn't, at least. I can't imagine being so spectacularly authoritarian as to say, "I don't like X, so I don't want people that are working for me to do X on their own time".

[titan972]

And the nuclear power plant wants to bury its waste in your back yard.

Whats that? The govt says no?

That sounds like taking away a choice!


I plan to kill some dude.

You find out and report the police, and foil my plans.

That sounds like taking away a choice!


How is this fallacy shit reason tv?

The govt has a right and an obligation to keep choices that are bad for everyone off the table.
Abortion does not fall into this category.

OK - how about the choice that results in the murder of human beings who are by every possible measure "innocent" - should the government take away that choice? Hell yes abortion falls in this category...it's pretty damn bad for the lives on the receiving end I'd say...

But of course you'll just keep being a hypocrite...seems to be a favorite trait amongst democrats.

[Riidii]

They don't have the choice to pick and choose what basic health services are provided in health care plans, no. Or they shouldn't, at least. I can't imagine being so spectacularly authoritarian as to say, "I don't like X, so I don't want people that are working for me to do X on their own time".

But that is the choice of the owner, the choice of the business.

So you are taking away a choice. A worker has every right to stop working there if they disagree with the policies.

[titan972]

This is an absolutely perfect of example of a Republican saying, "if I can't stop someone from doing something, I'm being oppressed!". No one's forcing religious people to take birth control, they're simply saying that they don't get to pick and choose what basic healthcare services are provided in employer health care plans.

Its not "basic" healthcare. And the businesses never said they were going to stop people from taking the pill - only that its not their civic duty to provide it. If women want it they can get it for free from somewhere else. Only recently have democrats made the case that this is something that every woman has to have...

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 11:23 PM ----------

My tax $$ pays for all those choices.
Thus, its not all about you, and the public has to be considered as well.

You are merely one component in a huge socio-technical system. If you think your choices don't matter, or don't effect others, then there isn't much to say but you are dead wrong. There is no such thing as a 100% personal choice that only affects you.

Like abortion? That only affects one person right...?

[Spectral]

But that is the choice of the owner, the choice of the business.

So you are taking away a choice. A worker has every right to stop working there if they disagree with the policies.

This is an entirely different argument than the argument that anyone's being oppressed or controlled by the policy. The policy in question prevents one group of people from controlling another's health care choices. As I said, this is a great example of a standard American right authoritarian style position, wherein being deprived of the ability to control other people is actually oppression.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 06:26 PM ----------

Its not "basic" healthcare. And the businesses never said they were going to stop people from taking the pill - only that its not their civic duty to provide it. If women want it they can get it for free from somewhere else. Only recently have democrats made the case that this is something that every woman has to have..

Access to reproductive control is absolutely basic healthcare. Thankfully, you don't get to define whether it is or not.

[Mnevis]

Besides, increasing the availability of contraceptives reduces abortions.

It may be that from your point of view, whether or not insurance covers it is irrelevant (a la Candidate Romney being able to say "What? I'm not against contraception"), but it really is relevant to many of our country's poorer residents.

The Catholic Church's leadership maintaining their anti-contraception stance is alienating them from even Catholics.

Taken to the logical conclusion, the "I don't want to have to support something I disagree with" folks would have to separate themselves entirely. You might not work on the Lord's Day, but do you shop at the grocery store that stays open? We make concessions to live in a society. I guess in a perfect world, an employee would always be able to choose an employer that doesn't disagree with her wanting the pill, but I find it terribly hard to argue that, in this world, the boss should get to make that decision.

[sulfuric]

Here's a perfect example...

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/01/o...y-hhs-mandate/

The democrats now make the case that they have the right to tell any business which makes a profit that they must abandon their personal views. Contraception is already provided free of charge by dozens of private and government funded organizations...getting it as a private citizen was never a problem before and after Sandra Fluke came along. Now the government is essentially saying that businesses have zero first-amendment rights...does that really not trouble you at all? Does it really not bother you that the government can force a private citizen and private business to adopt a particular worldview? It's tyrannical, un-American and a complete attack on the idea of religious freedom.

If you are OK with this then I'd simply ask how you'd feel if a republican administration banned the sale of contraceptives by all private businesses (which has never been suggested) or if they made physical fitness mandatory for everyone over 250 lbs. You would rightly say the government has no place telling people these things...and I'd say the same thing to you.

Excuse me, womens rights are not a "viewpoint" that has two respectable sides. Respect them

[Riidii]

This is an entirely different argument than the argument that anyone's being oppressed or controlled by the policy. The policy in question prevents one group of people from controlling another's health care choices. As I said, this is a great example of a standard American right authoritarian style position, wherein being deprived of the ability to control other people is actually oppression.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 06:26 PM ----------



Access to reproductive control is absolutely basic healthcare. Thankfully, you don't get to define whether it is or not.

A business doesn't control anyone. Why are are you ignoring that?

There is no controlling going on. You can rightfully leave if you don't like a company's healthcare choices.

However, on the other end. A business can't "leave" from providing abortion drugs.

Big, big difference.

[titan972]

even if i work for you, YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MY HEALTHCARE. you being my employer doesnt give you the right to know or dictate a fucking thing pertaining to my healthcare.

i seriously dont know how many other ways to put this. not allowing you to invade my privacy or take away my rights is NOT taking rights from you. me not sharing your religion is NOT me attacking your religion

Birth control has never been considered a standard healthcare service...

[Riidii]

Birth control has never been considered a standard healthcare service...

Not until recently, unfortunately.

I wonder what the next demand will be.

[titan972]

Excuse me, womens rights are not a "viewpoint" that has two respectable sides. Respect them

But you're suggesting that an unborn child has no rights...how about you respect those?

[Spectral]

A business doesn't control anyone. Why are are you ignoring that.

Because it's positively ignorant. You know as well as I do that many people don't have the luxury of simply saying, "well fuck it, I'll find another job then". I do, but I recognize that many others don't, and aren't in a position to do anything about this. Instead, they're denied basic healthcare because their employer isn't keen on it.

There is no controlling going on. You can rightfully leave if you don't like a company's healthcare choices.

You're being willfully obtuse if you believe businesses have no capacity to leverage their employees. Employment isn't perfectly elastic, this is basic economics.

However, on the other end. A business can't "leave" from providing abortion drugs.

No business is required to provide "abortion drugs". They're providing health insurance, which pays for birth control.

By the way, birth control isn't an abortion drug, you might want to try honesty out some time.

[smelltheglove]

so, you 2, how do you guys feel about viagra being covered?

[Spectral]

If the GOP members in this thread can't even realize that they've lost their war on birth control and that most people do consider it to be basic healthcare, then I'd have to tell the OP, "No, the party simply doesn't get it and isn't likely to in the next couple years".