Parental leave - gender roles

[Jackmoves]

Delightful. If I decide I'd like a couple years off for some form of recreation, will I be afforded that? Ah, no. Breeding entitles people to vacation, but other forms of recreation are not held in the same esteem. I suppose I can see why, but it's still feels quite obnoxious to give years of vacation time (as far as I know, there's no limit on the number of times this can be done, right?) to some and denying the same to others, on the basis of whether they personally want children or not.

It's unfair to those who choose not to have children, so is a lot of other things in sociaty, Universal healthcare, education, etc. There will be people who dislike to pay into such systems, I understand that, and respect your oppinion.

[Spectral]

It's unfair to those who choose not to have children, so is a lot of other things in sociaty, Universal healthcare, education, etc. There will be people who dislike to pay into such systems, I understand that, and respect your oppinion.

That's a fair way of framing it, I appreciate the way you put it. It seems more persuasive to me to say, "yes, this is unfair, but we think it provides optimal societal outcomes" than to insist that it's actually fair (as I've seen some people do). I don't know if this is the argument you were making, but I think it's a pretty good one!

[Hairyzac]

Delightful. If I decide I'd like a couple years off for some form of recreation, will I be afforded that? Ah, no. Breeding entitles people to vacation, but other forms of recreation are not held in the same esteem. I suppose I can see why, but it's still feels quite obnoxious to give years of vacation time (as far as I know, there's no limit on the number of times this can be done, right?) to some and denying the same to others, on the basis of whether they personally want children or not.

I'm aware that this is a losing battle on my end and that almost everyone thinks it's a fundamental right to have additional time off for children.

Raising a child isn't a recreational activity or a vacation...it is a responsibility. You are sick. Go seek some help. You feel the need to come to anonymous forums and belittle people who choose to not neglect their kids because you yourself were neglected as a child (you stated this yourself). You need to be on some doctor's couch not lurking the off topic forums on mmo champion.

[Spectral]

Raising a child isn't a recreational activity or a vacation...it is a responsibility. You are sick. Go seek some help. You feel the need to come to anonymous forums and belittle people who choose to not neglect their kids because you yourself were neglected as a child (you stated this yourself). You need to be on some doctor's couch not lurking the off topic forums on mmo champion.

Yeah, being dropped off at my grandmother's in the morning and picked up at the end of day is being neglected

Really, get a clue. Not everyone has the luxury of just deciding not to work.

[Stir]

That's a fair way of framing it, I appreciate the way you put it. It seems more persuasive to me to say, "yes, this is unfair, but we think it provides optimal societal outcomes" than to insist that it's actually fair (as I've seen some people do). I don't know if this is the argument you were making, but I think it's a pretty good one!

It's the argument I would make.
I don't want children, so I don't get my share of the parental leave 'taxes.' That being said, wanting to have children is still beneficial to society, and, even though some people (like yourself) seem to have worked out just fine without having a stay-at-home parent, I can merely look outside, at all the scum roaming the very street I live in, and decide that, on the whole, more constant parenting is most definitely beneficial to society as well.

[Spectral]

It's the argument I would make.
I don't want children, so I don't get my share of the parental leave 'taxes.' That being said, wanting to have children is still beneficial to society, and, even though some people (like yourself) seem to have worked out just fine without having a stay-at-home parent, I can merely look outside, at all the scum roaming the very street I live in, and decide that, on the whole, more constant parenting is most definitely beneficial to society as well.

The other strength of this argument is that it can be empirically backed (perhaps not proven, but at least shown to be strong). I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm sure sociologists and economists have worked out the rough economic value of having a stay at home parent; if that's as high, or at least in the vicinity, of the cost of having someone stay at home, then it's clearly a good policy from an economic standpoint. It still feels unfair (to me), but that doesn't really matter.

[Jackmoves]

That's a fair way of framing it, I appreciate the way you put it. It seems more persuasive to me to say, "yes, this is unfair, but we think it provides optimal societal outcomes" than to insist that it's actually fair (as I've seen some people do). I don't know if this is the argument you were making, but I think it's a pretty good one!

Aye, it was. This something that got a lot of support across the board here as well, politically that is, from left wingers to right wingers, I'm sure we got people that share your oppinion though, and as I said, I fully understand that, but it's for the "greater good" as they say. ;p

[Deleted]

My story has nothing to do with parenting and/or children, but is an example of gender roles and their place in society.

My boyfriend and I have been together for a couple of years now. Since september I have a fulltime wel-paid job while he's at home.
We don't have a child for which he has to stay at home, he just does the cleaning and such.

We both are very comfortable in our roles. Sometimes I might get a little grumpy because he still tries to make me do the cooking (and actually ashamed to say I often still do). If he wants to be the wife in this relationship he better do it properly! Regrettably he still has a lot to learn.

Besides that he might not always be fulfilling his task as nicely as I'd want him to, we are both quite comfortable with our roles. I work fulltime and bring in the money. He is the housewife and makes sure I don't have to do more work, once I get home.

Our families on the other hand seem to be quite intolerant of our little set-up. Especially my side of the family seem to have labeled him as lazy unemployed leech. Even his parents often pressure him to get a job. While last years when the roles were reversed no one really seemed to care...


So reversal of roles isn't that uncommon, regrettably still frowned upon by bystanders. Furthermore I can't say my boyfriend has shown that he is a very good housewife! *looks around and sees a mountain of single socks and unironed clothes in the corner...*

[apepi]

I don't care who takes care of the job/child just as it gets done right. Why should anyone else matter as long as it gets done?

[Spectral]

My story has nothing to do with parenting and/or children, but is an example of gender roles and their place in society.

My boyfriend and I have been together for a couple of years now. Since september I have a fulltime wel-paid job while he's at home.
We don't have a child for which he has to stay at home, he just does the cleaning and such.

We both are very comfortable in our roles. Sometimes I might get a little grumpy because he still tries to make me do the cooking (and actually ashamed to say I often still do). If he wants to be the wife in this relationship he better do it properly! Regrettably he still has a lot to learn.

Besides that he might not always be fulfilling his task as nicely as I'd want him to, we are both quite comfortable with our roles. I work fulltime and bring in the money. He is the housewife and makes sure I don't have to do more work, once I get home.

Our families on the other hand seem to be quite intolerant of our little set-up. Especially my side of the family seem to have labeled him as lazy unemployed leech. Even his parents often pressure him to get a job. While last years when the roles were reversed no one really seemed to care...


So reversal of roles isn't that uncommon, regrettably still frowned upon by bystanders. Furthermore I can't say my boyfriend has shown that he is a very good housewife! *looks around and sees a mountain of single socks and unironed clothes in the corner...*

So, you have a boyfriend that stays at home and does nearly nothing, tries to get you to cook, and does a mediocre job cleaning. This guy pretty much has it made!

[DEATHETERNAL]

It should be entirely up to the employer to decide how much time to allow off. If you want more time off, you can always quit.

That being said, I understand the want for laws allowing new mothers to be given a bit of time off automatically by law for recovery as she just had to physically give birth. Wanting laws to give men that same time off automatically by law I cannot understand at all as the man wasn't the one who physically had to go through giving birth.

[Deleted]

Wanting laws to give men that same time off automatically by law I cannot understand at all as the man wasn't the one who physically had to go through giving birth.

What if the mother left her baby for the father to take care of after the baby was born? Doesn't the father deserve to have the same time leave(or wtv it's called) as a mother would normally have?

If not, I think it's pretty stupid and it's not a good thing, especially for the father.

[salamala]

Looks like what you got here is a good excuse to have a kid... Some time off (most) of our shitty jobs.

[Zhangfei]

It's definitely an investment for society to give parents time with their kid. The developmental phase is so important, I wish we could give a little more time to our children to get them ahead of the curve for education.

[salamala]

Furthermore I can't say my boyfriend has shown that he is a very good housewife! *looks around and sees a mountain of single socks and unironed clothes in the corner...*

WOW, where do I find a woman like you!

[raechuul]

I'd love it. (If we both were on leave together for a bit.) I've seen it happen at my work, too, though I hear it's more rare elsewhere here.

[DEATHETERNAL]

What if the mother left her baby for the father to take care of after the baby was born? Doesn't the father deserve to have the same time leave(or wtv it's called) as a mother would normally have?

If not, I think it's pretty stupid and it's not a good thing, especially for the father.

No, because the only legitimate reason I see for legally enforced time off is physical recovery, not time to care for the child that someone else could do or be paid to do if the parents are unwilling to alter how they live their lives to do so.

[Auloria]

It should be entirely up to the employer to decide how much time to allow off. If you want more time off, you can always quit.

That being said, I understand the want for laws allowing new mothers to be given a bit of time off automatically by law for recovery as she just had to physically give birth. Wanting laws to give men that same time off automatically by law I cannot understand at all as the man wasn't the one who physically had to go through giving birth.

I thought that men only get paternity leave if the mother returns to work.

Regardless, the early months does a number on your sleep schedule, and it can be extremely exhausting for one person to try to manage even if they are not working. Adults aren't really designed to sleep in 2 hour increments.

[Kurioxan]

Yes, I have more respect for people that are career driven than people that aren't. I understand there are other perspectives on the matter.

People with jobs still "raise their child". The idea that they don't is absolutely inane.

Hmmm, guess this comes down to morals/values...
See no reason to respect a "career driven" person more than one that isnt, they are all choices.
Some people choose to work so they can live, others live to work.
Which is best, most respectable/worthy, I guess its subjective, personally i see no reason to waste my life working.

Then again, i am fairly wealthy so I dont most of the time, when i need to, i do, and hard.
But working 4 months out of a year is fine with me.
Meanwhile have fun learning, exploring and experiencing what life has to offer (no, not drugs, boring crap).
Later on, when i am in my 40s I will think about settling down for a job in sciences, specifically genetics, till then... bella vitta, life is to be enjoyed.

On topic, i see no reason why not.
The gender division is quite recent, industrial era really, and the stereotypes which come with it even more recent.
Im not talking about who uses the skirt, but division of labour.
It started becoming deeper as the males would go to work far from home and do hard work at the factories, while sparing their wifes from the hardship and prefering them to stay home, so they could raise the kids and enjoy their lives.

What started as quite the selfless, loving act, i guess got twisted into what we had a few decades ago and luckily its starting to vanish.

Both male and female worked, both raised the kids, both took care of the home, both are equally qualified to nurture and raise a kid.
Both have different views of the world, different ways to see things which in my view is important for a kid, a kid raised solely by one of the parents, while perfectly healthy, might lack something.
This also applies to same-gender couples, if both parents are committed to raise the kid, the kid will have both perspectives, regardless of gender from the parents.

Males are expected to bear the burden, but honestly? fck that. we are both human, with desires and needs, split it, share it and stuff roles up societies collective ass.

BUT, as Spectral said, one does not need to quit his career to raise a kid, the kid MIGHT lack something, but as many other things, its up to debate.

[Deleted]

I'm absolutely taking parental leave when I have kids, there's no doubt about it. Maybe even be a stay-at-home dad for a year or two, and if possible after that take him/her to the kindergarten where I'd be teaching, not to my own class but close enough so I could be there for them.
It's only equalitarism to allow the fathers the same possibilities and opportunities to be there for their childs growth, and not just the mothers.