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  1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    No, that's the direct cause. Heavy weapons detonated inside a densely packed civilian center will result in more casualties than a randomly fired fertilizer rocket.
    Except that Israel doesn't detonate "heavy weapons" inside densely packed civilian centers. The IDF only targets military targets. Sadly, Hamas chooses to place them in civilian populated areas specifically so that collateral damage will happen, and then they can scream "Israel kills civilians deliberately!!!".
    And still, death rates are significantly lower than they were in Cast Lead, because Israel and the IDF are far more selective in their target banks, and attempt to avoid as much collateral damage as possible.

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Except that Israel doesn't detonate "heavy weapons" inside densely packed civilian centers. The IDF only targets military targets.
    But that's just not true. Open the TV and you'll see them detonating heavy weapons inside densely packed civilian centers with your own eyes. Just a few days ago they targeted a civilian house, killing 10-11 people, because some person with Hamas links might have been there at some point before.

  3. #1163
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Those are secondary at best.

    The main reason is that Hamas uses civilians as "shields", whereas Israel provides defense to its civilians.
    And frankly, if Israel weren't dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending SMSs to Gazans warning them of incoming strikes, the toll would probably be higher.



    The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

    Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

    The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]

    An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]

    However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".

    On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#cite_ref-40

    "Whoops."
    Last edited by Wilian; 2012-11-20 at 01:55 PM.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    The REAL the death toll is higher is because Israel protects it's citizens and doesn't use them as shields like Hamas does.
    Even if Israel did use its citizens as human shields, it's just physically not possible for the Palestinian terror organizations to cause as many deaths with their rockets as Israel is causing their their strikes. The imbalance of power is incredibly immense and it's causing the imbalance in civilian casualty numbers.

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Snip
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQb5whfNRg

    You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it. This the 1800s where they are both going to go out into a field and break out their muskets and start shooting at each other.

    Civilians on the Palestine side die because Hamas hides their rockets inside houses or non-military structures. At what point when the government is storing ammo in your house does it not become a target? Is it still a normal home or is it now a military site. That is the fight Israel is having to fight. It's a though one and it isn't pretty.

    At the end of they day in a war or conflict as this is right now. You have to say, better them then me. Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks so it's going to take out every site that has rockets to protect it's people. If Hamas wants to protect their people they either need to upgrade to better rockets that can actually do damage to Israels ability to fight them or stop firing rockets into Israel.

    Hamas only has one action if they want to protect their people right now...stop the rockets and you stop the bombs. Israel won't, and shouldn't, stop dropping bombs till the rockets stop coming across the border.

  6. #1166
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQb5whfNRg

    You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it. This the 1800s where they are both going to go out into a field and break out their muskets and start shooting at each other.

    Civilians on the Palestine side die because Hamas hides their rockets inside houses or non-military structures. At what point when the government is storing ammo in your house does it not become a target? Is it still a normal home or is it now a military site. That is the fight Israel is having to fight. It's a though one and it isn't pretty.

    At the end of they day in a war or conflict as this is right now. You have to say, better them then me. Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks so it's going to take out every site that has rockets to protect it's people. If Hamas wants to protect their people they either need to upgrade to better rockets that can actually do damage to Israels ability to fight them or stop firing rockets into Israel.

    Hamas only has one action if they want to protect their people right now...stop the rockets and you stop the bombs. Israel won't, and shouldn't, stop dropping bombs till the rockets stop coming across the border.
    The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it.
    That would be true if Israel was a terrorist state.

  8. #1168
    Anyone who didn't expect Israel to get into war(s) when news of an early election reached us a month or two ago obviously doesn't know their history. Personally, I support Israel. The international press likes to focus on them a lot more as evil oppressors of Palestine and a lot less as the nation surrounded by enemies who would love to wipe them off the map.

  9. #1169
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.
    Soldiers who did that should be tried and punished.

    However, the IDF as a whole doesn't fight from behind its civilian population - something that cannot be said about Hamas, who place their launch sites in goddamn kindergartens among other places.

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Even if Israel did use its citizens as human shields, it's just physically not possible for the Palestinian terror organizations to cause as many deaths with their rockets as Israel is causing their their strikes. The imbalance of power is incredibly immense and it's causing the imbalance in civilian casualty numbers.
    1 out of 8 rockets Hamas fires don't even make it across the border. The highly cried about little boy that Egypts PM held and kissed that was killed by Israel, was in fact killed by a Hamas rocket. I have yet to see a death toll from either the UN or Red Cross. Most the dead they claim are women and children, if you took a min to watch that video they talk about using them as human shields. Also I have yet to see a picture that people say is a dead family in Gaza that is actually a dead family.

    Almost all photos that people are claiming to be of Palestine are not. Even people in the BBC (http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-...-fauxtography/) are falling for it because people can't take the 30sec to use google images.

    If the Hamas cared about their children and people as much as the people of Israel do. We wouldn't even be having this talk right now. We would be talking about how bad WoW is and that the next MMO is going to crush it.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Soldiers who did that should be tried and punished.
    If you read the last bit of the wiki quote, two men were trialed and found guilty but neither went to prison.

    Besides, using human shields was in fact a tactic for IDF up until 2005.

    The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

    Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]
    Last edited by Wilian; 2012-11-20 at 01:12 PM.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  12. #1172
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    Personally, I support Israel.
    That doesn't mean you should switch off your brain and blindly support every action taken by the Israeli leaders, does it?

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....
    I hope you're aware how warfare against snipers work? You don't just run in casually, you bomb the shit out of the place just in case.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....
    Or, you know, maybe not set up a base and sniper position in an occupied civilian home. C'mon, who does that?

  16. #1176
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    The point you have missed it. I never even mentioned Hamas, I only mentioned that you fail to recognise that there are innocent people on the other side of the fence too. Again you disgust me cubby as always.

    I don't think that anyone would disagree that not everyone in Palestine is behind the Hamas. Just like how not every Israeli is behind their government's actions. The difference is that the Hamas have no problem sacrificing their own people to gain an advantage. Which is why they stick their missile launchers in densely populated civilian centres.

    If the Israeli's don't attack because of too many civilians, they keep their missiles.
    If the Israeli's DO attack, civilians get killed and the Hamas proclaim to the world what monsters the Israeli's are, while laughingly launching other missiles into a city full of Israeli civilians.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Or, you know, maybe not set up a base and sniper position in an occupied civilian home. C'mon, who does that?
    Most countries. It's a very common tactic during urban warfare. It's not like they pick the house with the family in it, the way it usually happens is the sniper scopes out a good place to set up (broad view, hidden, easily defedable, etc.) and the the unit goes in there. I reckon in this incident the house was occupied and the soldiers decided they are going to set in there anyway and not go look for a diffrent home, and you can figure out the rest.

    Just saying.

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    If the Israeli's don't attack because of too many civilians, they keep their missiles.
    If the Israeli's DO attack, civilians get killed and the Hamas proclaim to the world what monsters the Israeli's are, while laughingly launching other missiles into a city full of Israeli civilians.
    Which is exactly why the tactics used by Israel are not going to ever work (regardless of what you think of their moral justification). The only way to solve this is to make the Palestinians not want to lob rockets and bombs at Israelis. Bombing them back into the Middle Ages is not going to do that, it will just radicalize yet another generation of Palestinians.

    At this point it's getting ridiculous that the international community is allowing Israel to use these tactics because from past experience it is well known that they don't work and do nothing to solve the underlying problem. It also shows the incredible hypocrisy of the international community, since when the same thing happened in Kosovo, Serbia was bombed and troops put on the ground to make sure the muslims were allowed to live in their homes and stay in their land without fear of a superior military pushing them around however they saw fit based on some historical claim to the land.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JeDayKeen View Post
    Most countries. It's a very common tactic during urban warfare.
    Well it shouldn't be (although I highly doubt it is). It's beyond barbaric.

  19. #1179
    a sample movie about who is Hamans that control Gazza.
    youtube.com/watch?v=BUaTMr6bpuc

  20. #1180
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    but theyre nice people really. posting this just means your anti semitic /sarcasm

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post


    The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]

    An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]

    However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".

    On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#cite_ref-40

    "Whoops."

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