To top it all off, where the hell is Velen and Gren Greymane at, and the Dwarf leaders.... You can see where i am going with this
To top it all off, where the hell is Velen and Gren Greymane at, and the Dwarf leaders.... You can see where i am going with this
After Thrall was freed from the elementals and Deathwing was defeated, they went on a honeymoon.
It is you who seems to have a misunderstanding what a Mary Sue is. A Mary Sue does not have to be the centrepiece of the franchise. Although you'd still be wrong in Thrall's case, because he is as close to the centrepiece of the current WoW lore as one can get. There is no other character that is devoted more development time than him. That's all irrelevant anyway. Even if he isn't "the centrepiece", that is not a necessary criterion of being a Mary Sue.
Of course Metzen would laugh at it, one of the signs of a Mary Sue is that the author is incapable of understanding that their creation has gone down that path. As for "mistakes" Thrall made, the other option to handing over the mantle of Warchief was to stay as Warchief and not devote his time to the Earthen Ring and the Cataclysm. So risk Garrosh or have the world destroyed. Given that choice he obviously made the right one... again.
Thrall does not have one character flaw. Not one. Varian is bitter. Vol'jin (a character I love) is too passive. Magni lacked self-confidence and was too hasty. Cairne recognized his danger too late and wasn't hasty enough. Malfurion is rigid. Gelbin got bogged down in politics. Sylvanas is a vengeful monster. That's not to say that these are bad for the story. They're not. The fanboyism for Sylvanas boggles me sometimes, but hey, at least she has *something*.
You can't actually point at Thrall and say "Thrall is too X". That is terrible storytelling and is a sure sign that the author(s) are too invested in the character's perfection to make them three dimensional. http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm Giving the test to Thrall in the most conservative manner possible and he still comes out with an 87. The cutoff for hopeless Mary Sue? 50. I left out sections 2 and 3, to be conservative. I left out checkmarks that Metzen would likely check if he were honest with himself. I made sure to try and include every "anti mary sue" possibility that I could.
You can say he's not a Mary Sue all you want, but that would only be wishful thinking.
How about, Thrall is too honorable and forgiving? I'd say those are flaws for someone who'd lead the horde ;3You can't actually point at Thrall and say "Thrall is too X". That is terrible storytelling and is a sure sign that the author(s) are too invested in the character's perfection to make them three dimensional.
Edit: Actually, this type of thing is addressed in the link. Some things don't get to count as flaws. "Too good looking" or "too badass" aren't flaws. They're just more of a sign of a Mary sue.
Last edited by Sooba; 2012-11-15 at 05:21 PM.
It's the only flaw I can think of as a warchief, to me he's the kind of character that'd never kill if the opponent, no matter how dangerous, were "defeated".
if Deathwing assumed his human form after being defeated at the maelstrom, Thrall is one of very few WoW leaders I can think of that might've actually thought of banishing him instead of destroying him.
But then again that's quite a Mary Sue trait aswell, always the honorable who only uses lethal force when necessary. Zapping a formless dragon with tentacles threatening to obliterate the world is hardly being "too forgiving", in that situation it's quite obvious
Thralls flaws are highlighted in tides of war, he isn't perfect. Your just unable to notice those flaws to accept them, which honestly is your problem, not the writers.
I'm not sure if I'd like for that be (one of) Thrall's flaw(s), but again it would be *something*. His flaw doesn't even have to relate to politics.
---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 01:33 PM ----------
Last edited by Sooba; 2012-11-15 at 05:35 PM.
OT: I'm not saying Thrall is or isn't a Mary Sue, because honestly, I'm not a lil whiny girl. Who cares? When you make a multi million playerbase game you can choose to add yourself or not. BUT either way as for the "Thrall is to 'x'" question I can answer that. Thrall is riddled with doubt, in himself in, in his abilities, in his choices...all of it. In one of the last 3 books (The Shattering, Twilight of the Aspects, Tides of War; I can't remember which) you find out that Thrall had no personality beyond being the Warchief, so once he left, he was a whiny baby who could hardly do even the most basic shaman-ing. HE WAS like superman shaman up until then, and now he's all OMG HOW DOES I EARTHBENDS A ROCK!?!?!? Are you serious? He was one of the most powerful people how could he just forget all of that so quickly?
In terms of Warchief succession someone said his choices were continue to be warchief and fail or hand the mantle to Garrosh, that is way off. He could have given it to Vol'jin or Cairne or Saurok or anyone, but he doubt that the unity he had been trying to create could handle anyone but an Orc, so he doubted his ability to create harmony.
Also if he doubted himself to lead, he was super powerful and how hard is it to be Warchief, all he would have had to do was stand out in the maelstrom getting his meditate on and then once a day send a wyvern back to org being like "Hey, barrens you need more lumber!" or "Twilight Highlands you need more Twilight Hammer Skulls", being a leader doesn't mean you have to venture to every single zone, you just need to have management skills, which can be used anywhere. He didn't think he was capable of even that. Then when he choose Garrosh as he left he was thinking "Shit, I hope this works, but I have no idea." Also Cairne told him Garrosh was a bad idea, and he got whiny and was all "STFU COWMAN I AM ALWAYS RIGHT!!!! MEH" even though he was thinking the same thing.
So i'm just saying while Thrall has superman jesus shaman powers (there is no denying that) he acted like a pitiful whiny bitch. So there is your flaw, doubt filled to the brim. Though now he's fine but he's out of the limelight. Now don't we all feel better? No? of course not, because the WoW community thrives off of moaning, and bitterness and complaining. You drink it like mother's milk.
As for Thrall and Agra, they will be in 5.1 with their baby in Orc starting area, and Thrall helps with the Troll's problems. and this is how I like it, I hope he helps get the Horde back on track, but then goes back to being a neutral character who isn't doing to much. I want it to be Baine's time. Baine for Warchief, Baine for President!!! He would be the perfect leader, understanding of the Alliance, not war hungry, but also understanding of when Red needs to slap blue in the face to keeps the sides equal.
You're a step ahead of Krassk, but you still dipped off into the haterade there at the second to last paragraph. There really is no need to play that card. There is a grand difference between "moaning" and stating some simple assertions about the strength of storytelling and my wishes for a game. I've been very clear that I've enjoyed this game and the last.
I understand that you're saying he has doubt. Unfortunately it never really followed him into flaw territory. Did his self doubt cause him to be incapable of dealing with Deathwing? No. Did it cripple his capacity as Warchief earlier? No. Does it mar other characters' views of him? No. Is it affecting his personal life to any degree? No. Then it's not truly a significant flaw is it?
You claim that it stopped him from being both Warchief and dealing with the Maelstrom at the same time. That's not doubt, that's just realism and wisdom. He'd have been a fool to attempt them both at the same time. The position of Warchief is significantly more involved than parachuting orders into Orgrimmar from outside while having no concept of what it's currently like in Orgrimmar. Additionally, the job of fighting Deathwing and healing the elements didn't exactly allow for split attention. No, he was wise to tackle only one at a time.
He has doubts. I'll grant you that. I won't grant that it constitutes a flaw anywhere close to what others have. Additionally, are there any other flaws? We're at one. One minor flaw with little impact. This does not a Mary Sue unmake.
As for Baine, I like your choice. It wouldn't be my first, but he's solid. The fact that there would be others potentially as good as he speaks to the fact that someone stated earlier: We don't "need" Thrall back as Warchief. If we get him, it's because the authors wanted it so, not because the story made it necessary.
My "haterade" as you put it was not towards you specifically, I'm just sick of people whining about Mary Sue's. Who cares, its not real, tis a game. Also you can't look at offical forums and MMO-Champ forums and not say that a bunch is just whines and cries.
As for the doubt, I didn't mean to claim that it stopped him from being Warchief and Shaman, I meant that if he was as powerful and superjesus as you make him out to be, why couldn't he have done both, it wouldn't be hard to get updates from advisers and dole out leadership whilst helping with the Maelstrom if he was super powerful, but the wisdom you said he showed that kept him from doing both, shows that his power is not all you think it is.
As for defeating Deathwing, his doubt didn't stop him from doing it but it sure as hell hindered his path to that point. He constantly doubts his abilities, doesn't think he is good enough to help the aspects, and second guesses all his choices, and that causes him to have to go on a path of rediscovery, twice! Once when he is still at the Maelstrom, leaving to go through time and help Ysera, relearning practically all of his shamanism. Which takes time but like any hero in any story he comes through, and then again during 4.2 when he gets exploded into the elements, each one representing some part of him to which he holds doubts about. How can you, who said you enjoyed Cata, not look at that and see it as his having of flaws, which do not get removed from him, but like a mature person he is able to face and overcome. Which does not magically remove them, it just means you are no able to see what causes you problems and work with them to lower their frequency.
And from war3 he hasn't really been a superman too much. War3 lead Orcs to Kalimdor on the Visions of another (medivh) then pretty much listen to Cairne and Rexxar. WoW I don't think anyone really stood out, BC he goes to Nagrand meets his Grandma, Wrath goes to Argent Tournament, meets with Varian, they grumpy, Tirion steps up tells 'em to STFU cause he was the man of the xpac (yet I hear no mary sues crys for him, even though he bitch slaps Arthas multiple times through his will and sheer holiness), Cata, he is the Tirion of this xpac, which while widely based, seems to be an elemental xpac, he is a shaman so it fits, brought to the front to help heal a crater. and then sub in earth, with no where near the power of any other aspect, to kill a mean dragon, Mists no where to be found yet, all the while Varian (who is now voiced by metzen, but not before) is stepping up to be High King, and is becoming more a neutral esque person which all other xpacs have had. Varian is about to become the new jesus, and yet you do not claim him to be a Mary Sue. Your problems come from the fact that Thrall can do magic. Plain and Simple. He is no more powerful than Jaina in her maginess, or Malfurion in his druidiness, or tirion in his paladininess. It just seems that you want to hate on Thrall, when he really has done nothing more than other characters from other expansions. The only negative really is that Blizzard is lazy and won't hire real voice actors, and metzen voices everyone.
What I'm trying to say is that Thrall does not necessarily have to be that leader. Of course, he could come back, take over and be Warchief again, but come on, it's been the same since Warcraft 3! He's been (part of) the 'solution' to so many crises in the last 8 years (Horde's encampment, Horde's survival in Durotar, the world's survival against Archimonde, the world's survival against Deathwing), that come on, he shouldn't come back to where he was those years ago. He is a cool character (I don't want to go into the Mary Sue debate here), but he was already Warchief before and I don't think it would be good to place him in that position again. Blizzard states they want to bring War back into Warcraft, well, Thrall as Warchief hasn't really helped in that before and it would be horrible if they would change him into some Alliance-hating Horde leader who wants to fight the Alliance. If they want to keep the war between Horde and Alliance going, Thrall should not be Warchief. If, however, they choose to "end" the war after Garrosh's death and have us working together, say because the Burning Legion is coming to Azeroth or something, then I would still prefer another character as Warchief. Placing Thrall back as Alliance-friendly Warchief would put his story back to before Cataclysm and would make no sense to me. His story has continued, he is now a father and husband, leader of the Earthen Ring, and I just hope they give another character a chance to shine as leader of the Horde.
In short: why we need a new leader is obvious, and why it should not be Thrall is that it would be my personal preference if they would give another character a chance to shine instead of pushing Thrall back to where he was before.
Well, I am one of the people who think Thrall should either die or simply move on.
He has no real flaws. And he IS Metzen's pet. Don't even try to deny it. He started off great, much like Drizzt, and then he was overused and pimped all over. He simply overshadows all the other leaders of the Horde by far, except for Sylvanas. He went from being a normal shaman to somehow becoming the most powerful shaman in the world and the earth aspect. He has a whole dungeon for him (Caverns of time), where the alliance is even forced to rescue him. He has an awesome Nagrand questline (does the alliance have anything similar? Hell no...). He might not be ALL over, but he is extremely present, moreso than any other figure in the lore. He is also one of the remaining Warcraft 3 heroes that has not been emasculated (think Tyrande) or killed (think Uther) or truly gone neutral.
To the people saying he has become neutral: Just no. Neutral is Tirion. Despite being a human, he NEVER gets involved in any positive way for the alliance. Thrall is all over the Horde.
Thrall and Aggra are barely Mary Sues. Just because Thrall was the main protagonist for Catacylsm doesn't mean he's a Mary Sue. Thrall was one of the worst shamans in the entire Earthen Ring and was actually setting them back. He then went to assist the Dragon Aspects in taking on one of Deathwing's creations and became more powerful, but was still a lot weaker than they all were.
There are a lot of characters who could best Thrall in 1v1 combat. On top of that, he has many social and mental flaws that he has to work with, primarly him killing Cairne via Garrosh and having to deal with what Garrosh is doing in Azeroth now.
If anything, the only "Mary Sues" in Warcraft are the player characters themselves.
So really, those accusing any lore character of being a sue, its beyond hypocritical. The only player characters avatar that doesn't appear as a giant sue are the players that don't raid, don't pvp, don't quest, and just sit around all day in major cities.
Thrall isn't involved in everything. He isn't metzens ingame avatar because metzen is involved with multiple characters as well as Thrall, so if you accuse Thrall of it, then Varian, Malfurion, Tirion and more count in the same context.
People are just pure ignorant to the key aspects of this story and think because they heard some other tool say it that they can think the same.
- The players avatar is the biggest Mary Sue in the game, therefore, any lore character cannot be a sue.
- Metzen is involved with Thrall, so if Thrall is a Mary Sue, are all the other characters he is involved with must also be a Mary Sue.
This is just bad reasoning. The fact that the player's avatar is the biggest Mary Sue does not mean that other characters can not be Mary Sues. The fact that Metzen is involved with many characters doesn't mean that one of them cannot be a Mary Sue.
Getting a discussion up is ok, but at least use valid arguments and please please stop personally insulting everyone who doesn't share your opinion.
People on this threads so freely toss around the term mary sue like they have a clue to what it means, when in reality they are copying a buzz word someone else said on a childish train of thought.
Characters we play as are the biggest mary sues in wow, because they are involved in every single detail of the game, you don't see it, because you can't imagine something wrong with your own character as a representation of yourself.
Lastly, if a developer of a fictional franchise is involved with multiple characters, and having many of those characters central to the story, it can not possbile make any single character a sue, thats beyond ridiculous if you don't understand that.