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  1. #61
    your windsong uptimes of 40% for 3 enchants is a little bit weird.
    i used windsong before jadespirit and cannot confirm the windsong uptimes u listed, there are double procs occuring (but they are rare), and the uptime was more like 25-30 %, of any one of the possible statproc. Its not uptime for each statproc, its uptime combined.

    Jadespirit uptime for me is somewhat at low 25% percent, so the uptimes of both are comparable, with a little higher end on Windsong.

    Too i am sure that 1650 int beats 1500 of random secondary stats in overall usefulness.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    your windsong uptimes of 40% for 3 enchants is a little bit weird.
    i used windsong before jadespirit and cannot confirm the windsong uptimes u listed, there are double procs occuring (but they are rare), and the uptime was more like 25-30 %, of any one of the possible statproc. Its not uptime for each statproc, its uptime combined.

    Jadespirit uptime for me is somewhat at low 25% percent, so the uptimes of both are comparable, with a little higher end on Windsong.

    Too i am sure that 1650 int beats 1500 of random secondary stats in overall usefulness.
    No, if you look at WOL, and buffs gained, there are 3 different Windsong buffs that will show up with 3 different uptimes, for each of the 3 possible stat buffs. For example http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5378&e=5833. You have to add the 3 together to get the total uptime of one of the three buffs.

    It's entirely possible that 25 man uptime is significantly higher than 10 man uptime because you have a lot more things ticking on a lot more people at once, causing it to proc sooner after it comes off ICD.

  3. #63
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Damage outputs on normal modes is just plain insulting to healers. Of course you can get by with 5k spirit even when 2 healing, you can probably heal most fights using nothing but HST and HW. Frankly, discussing required Spirit levels for normal modes is pointless, they're balanced around people with 463 gear, not full 476+. Try doing heroic Feng or Gara'jal before telling anyone else that they're wrong because they say that 8k+ is mandatory. My guild 4 or 5 heals most normal modes now in 25 man, if you even have 2 competent healers on most 10 man fights you won't see any mana constraints. I swear this is just like his haste stacking crusade in Cataclysm again...
    8k spirit was mandatory when MSV normal was actually a progression raid so are you telling me that also MSV HC requires 8k spirit? And what about ToES HC? For the time being it will be mandatory to have at least... guess what... 8k spirit?
    MSV was tuned for ilvl 463 so that leads me to believe that MSV HC should be made for ilvl476? So if you are 480+ ilvl you are outgearing it? I think almost everyone is outgearing it then and almost everyone should have cleared MSV hc.

    I just think you should make clear what "progression" means because to me progression means HoF normal, to tibbee means HoF hc and to Method means absloutely nothing. Not to mention that you also must take in consideration the gear you have, the raid composition and your raid performance. So saying 5k/8k/11k of spirit is required it's like to say nothing.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    8k spirit was mandatory when MSV normal was actually a progression raid so are you telling me that also MSV HC requires 8k spirit? And what about ToES HC? For the time being it will be mandatory to have at least... guess what... 8k spirit?
    MSV was tuned for ilvl 463 so that leads me to believe that MSV HC should be made for ilvl476? So if you are 480+ ilvl you are outgearing it? I think almost everyone is outgearing it then and almost everyone should have cleared MSV hc.

    I just think you should make clear what "progression" means because to me progression means HoF normal, to tibbee means HoF hc and to Method means absloutely nothing. Not to mention that you also must take in consideration the gear you have, the raid composition and your raid performance. So saying 5k/8k/11k of spirit is required it's like to say nothing.
    What some people don't realize is every guild progresses at different levels.
    Myself, I've played in a ton of different guilds. Some very serious end-game progressive guilds that can down fresh content in a matter of a week or two & I've been in some that currently, haven't even cleared MSV normal yet and don't care about things like raiding professions or min/maxing. To those very casual, normal content is considered progression for them.

    I think people should spec however they deem fit for what works for them. You want to run with 11k unbuffed spirit, go for it. You want to run with 5 or 6k spirit, go for it. If it works for you, do it. If you're really struggling, try something different. You can take in new ideas and try 'em out yourself, but don't just listen to what works for someone because it may work for them but maybe not for you.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    8k spirit was mandatory when MSV normal was actually a progression raid so are you telling me that also MSV HC requires 8k spirit? And what about ToES HC? For the time being it will be mandatory to have at least... guess what... 8k spirit?
    MSV was tuned for ilvl 463 so that leads me to believe that MSV HC should be made for ilvl476? So if you are 480+ ilvl you are outgearing it? I think almost everyone is outgearing it then and almost everyone should have cleared MSV hc.

    I just think you should make clear what "progression" means because to me progression means HoF normal, to tibbee means HoF hc and to Method means absloutely nothing. Not to mention that you also must take in consideration the gear you have, the raid composition and your raid performance. So saying 5k/8k/11k of spirit is required it's like to say nothing.
    Just to educate you on mathematical shorthand, saying "8k+" means "at least 8,000", and the phrase "at least" means at a bare minimum, but more is not only possible and may be recommended. By definition, if it is mandatory to have 10k Spirit, it falls within the "8k+" range. Saying that people need at least 8,000 Spirit for heroics includes Heroic Stone Guards at a minimum, but also includes Heroic Sha of Fear, which may require 10k or higher.

    As for gear levels, MSV normal drops 489 ilvl loot. Why would heroic be tuned for gear 13 ilvls lower than that? Normal MSV is tuned far lower because it is the very first raid out from 5 mans, and LFR look literally takes months to get. PvE content is generally tuned around the gear that people are expected to have upon entering, not what the content itself drops, so you can't just state that MSV heroic is balanced around ilvl 476 gear, because that would make no sense as normal mode drops much higher gear than that. If that was the case, your raid would outgear the heroic modes upon a single normal mode clear, which obviously isn't true.

    Finally, I never mentioned the word "progression", I was talking about the discussion of min/maxing in heroic modes with someone only using their normal mode experience to shove their opinion around. Telling someone that they have too much spirit for normal modes and to reforge/gem it off is silly because if they have the gear to get that much spirit, they can easily handle healing normal modes. You don't need to min/max for normal modes; if you have a couple of LFR or valor pieces, your gear is fine and you'll get a lot more out of playing better than sacrificing your spirit.

  6. #66
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Just to educate you on mathematical shorthand, saying "8k+" means "at least 8,000", and the phrase "at least" means at a bare minimum, but more is not only possible and may be recommended. By definition, if it is mandatory to have 10k Spirit, it falls within the "8k+" range. Saying that people need at least 8,000 Spirit for heroics includes Heroic Stone Guards at a minimum, but also includes Heroic Sha of Fear, which may require 10k or higher.
    Thanks for educating me but there was no need. I just forgot to add + after 8k so please reread my statement and reply back keeping in mind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    As for gear levels, MSV normal drops 489 ilvl loot. Why would heroic be tuned for gear 13 ilvls lower than that? Normal MSV is tuned far lower because it is the very first raid out from 5 mans, and LFR look literally takes months to get. PvE content is generally tuned around the gear that people are expected to have upon entering, not what the content itself drops, so you can't just state that MSV heroic is balanced around ilvl 476 gear, because that would make no sense as normal mode drops much higher gear than that. If that was the case, your raid would outgear the heroic modes upon a single normal mode clear, which obviously isn't true.
    People cleared MSV hc with no more than 480 ilvl so probably they are tuned for that ilvl and not more. Then we can argue about who cleared it with no more than 480ilvl and who need 490 ilvl to clear it but that's another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Finally, I never mentioned the word "progression", I was talking about the discussion of min/maxing in heroic modes with someone only using their normal mode experience to shove their opinion around. Telling someone that they have too much spirit for normal modes and to reforge/gem it off is silly because if they have the gear to get that much spirit, they can easily handle healing normal modes. You don't need to min/max for normal modes; if you have a couple of LFR or valor pieces, your gear is fine and you'll get a lot more out of playing better than sacrificing your spirit.
    I'm just saying that for progression you may mean X hc and I may mean Y hc or even normal so probably everyone, when stating something, should try to explain a bit more than "X spirit is too much" or "you need Y spirit".
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    As for gear levels, MSV normal drops 489 ilvl loot. Why would heroic be tuned for gear 13 ilvls lower than that? Normal MSV is tuned far lower because it is the very first raid out from 5 mans, and LFR look literally takes months to get. PvE content is generally tuned around the gear that people are expected to have upon entering, not what the content itself drops, so you can't just state that MSV heroic is balanced around ilvl 476 gear, because that would make no sense as normal mode drops much higher gear than that. If that was the case, your raid would outgear the heroic modes upon a single normal mode clear, which obviously isn't true.
    There's no way that MSV Heroic would be tuned around ilvl 489 because even though normal mode drops that ilevel, unless you expect the average guild to be willing to farm normal mode for like 2 months to have close to full 489 gear before progressing on heroics, the ilvl of people entering heroic will be much less than that. An ilevel tuning of somewhere around 470 - 476 for heroic MSV (and possibly regular HoF/TES) is perfectly reasonable, because most people will be entering it in a mix of 489 MSV drops/LFR drops/dungeon blues/rep and VP items.

  8. #68
    Why is this even a question? Jade spirit improves throughput and mana regen when you need it the most. GG.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerudo View Post
    Why is this even a question? Jade spirit improves throughput and mana regen when you need it the most. GG.
    Well, because it's a good question! You do understand that secondary stats improve throughput and mana regen for a rshaman, as well. GG.

    The uptime on Windsong is considerately higher than Jade Spirit.

    I went with Jade Spirit for one raid night, and switched back the next day. I didn't like it. I may decide to switch back at some point, but for now ...I love the multiple stacking secondary stat buffs!

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