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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    How is there anymore logistical effort for 25man raiding. 25 people have to show up but its still the same as having a 10man show up. It's the same thing just with more people. Isn't that a price you have to pay to raid at that size? Why should you be rewarded for doing the same thing?
    Well it is not very hard to imagine how is there anymore logistical efford now is it?

    1) You have to FIND 25 people to raid 25 vs 10. How many pugs excactly raid 25s in your server?
    2) You have to find 2,5 times more people to maintain a 25 due to the natural afks departures etc etc.
    3) You have to spent more time to form a group of 25 people vs 10. Even if you have them all showing up, you need 2,5 time larger bench than 10 and that means more time to decide who stays out and then deal with their dissapointement for staying out.
    4) You have to get em inside the raid. Especially now that "have group will travel" is gone.
    5) You need more time to go through tactics and assign roles.
    6) You need to go through the tactics every time almost since it is highly unlikely to have the excact same people that you raided with the previous time and the new ones have to know how the rest work on this.
    7) You need more time to distribute the loot. 6 items for 25 people as possible recipient while in 10 man its more like "oh agility leather give it to the rogue".
    8) You need more time to recover after wipes
    9) You need more waiting time from people to come back from unexpected afk/random DC
    10) You need more time to actually kill the boss in combat since most of the fights last longer in 25 vs 10.

    Basically you know all the above. But making naive comments to descredit people, even if those people happen to be Blizzard's Lead Encounter Designers is a very popular tactic in forums after all...

  2. #62
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    it's the same net result. you still have to organise the same amount of stuff.

    25 people have to turn up (+ bench) - you still have to set raid assignments
    10 people have to turn up (+ bench) - you still have to set raid assignments.

    what exactly is there "more to do". i dont see a logical justification of 25mans getting more than a 10man when both are the same "thing" just different. Also if its so much more work don't do it. You knew what you were signing up for. Why should you get more, if thats how you choose to play? Why diminish a 10man's choice when you had the same choice.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    it's the same net result. you still have to organise the same amount of stuff.

    25 people have to turn up (+ bench) - you still have to set raid assignments
    10 people have to turn up (+ bench) - you still have to set raid assignments.

    what exactly is there "more to do". i dont see a logical justification of 25mans getting more than a 10man when both are the same "thing" just different. Also if its so much more work don't do it. You knew what you were signing up for. Why should you get more, if thats how you choose to play? Why diminish a 10man's choice when you had the same choice.
    Because people know EXCACTLY what 25 means, they are all raiding 10s.
    Because so much hassle doesnt worth it even if you prefer 25s over 10s with nothing on the side.

    That is all the explanation you need, and that is why things need to get fixed.
    And you still pretend you don't understand, i like you :P

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    it's the same net result. you still have to organise the same amount of stuff.
    The raid leaders who coordinate and organise a 25 man raid have a lot more work to perform than those who organise a 10 man raid. There are some tasks that aren't that different, but also others that take a lot more time and effort simply because of the sheer numbers involved.

    EJL

  5. #65
    some of you seem to be under the impression the only way to fix this is to change 10m ilvls, and if that is your only suggestion, which is obviously something blizzard themselves probably would have come up with and thought of themselves, then you might want to try again.

    Obviously it wouldn't fucking matter if they changed ilvls because bosses have to still be tuned in 10/25 for gear and the number of players, and if I can progress through 10 man at a lower ilvl heroic gear but still kill bosses, IDGAF.

  6. #66
    So here's people opinions in a nut shell: "25mans are harder to get people for and the guild masters/raid leaders/officers put in alot of work to get 25 people there."

    My opinion, 25mans have more people which is more people to spread the logistics onto, 10mans have less people to handle the load so the effort required percentage of raiders should be about the same, but it's not.

    Case in point a 25man feasts only requires double the fish/meat/vegies for 2.5x the people and only 1 token mat as well, so 25mans already have a benefit there

    25man raiders get more drops per boss, now the amount of items scales exactly with the amount of people from 10 to 20man, but the benefit 25man raiders see is that fact your see more items you have more chances of seeing the low percentage drop rate items per kill.

    25man raiders have more options when it comes to choosing specs and classes, fights that call for certain things to fall on 1 person in 10man where as in 25man they fall to 2 or 3. We all know certain specs are better for controlled burst dps or healing than others

    Even all this aside, the MAIN reason 10man guilds are so popular is "logistics" but not about running the guild it's about their computers running the game. Not everyone has a PC that can handle 25man raiding, especially with the graphical improvements made in Pandaria.
    As it is in my 10man guild we make everyone ditch their companion pets just to lighten the load a fraction, and the next person that says "oh just reduce the graphics and you'll be sweet" reducing the graphics does make the game run fast but it also makes it a hell of a lot harder to see game mechanics, so unless blizzard intend on making their options for graphical reductions a damn sight more in depth for what you can and can't turn off or reduce, 25mans will continue to die

    p.s. a rock solid 60fps in 10mans falls rapidly to 15-20fps in LFR

  7. #67
    The Patient Aviney's Avatar
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    As said before and as will be said many more times: If you need to make 25 man raids more appealing, let them die. If you like doing 25s, go do 25s or find a guild that does. No one says you have to raid 10 mans.

  8. #68
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviney View Post
    As said before and as will be said many more times: If you need to make 25 man raids more appealing, let them die. If you like doing 25s, go do 25s or find a guild that does. No one says you have to raid 10 mans.
    Talking about appealing? Whats not more appealing about a raid setting thats bother easier to organise and generally easier to play through. If my guild went 10man we'd have it easy, however we dont want to ditch 13 people as we've been together for 4 years, its ridiculously hard to recruit people as 25man as you need some 35 raiders or so to keep raids going. Once you miss a few raids, and drop to 10man to kill stuff because you are short members people are like "Well, could just go 10man full time as its easier going."
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by rnbwtrout View Post
    personally, i think they should just get rid of 10's and 25's and go to just one 15man.

    having raided both, here's my thoughts:

    10mans:
    too unforgiving. if everyone is average skill, just 1 person not performing can wipe the group.
    vent is not as entertaining.
    melee has a hard time finding a roster or pug spot.
    can create "bring the class not the player" situations (healing cd's, burst dps, aoe dps, buffs...etc).
    is logistically easier for leadership to manage.

    25mans:
    too forgiving. you can have a couple brain-deads and a few scrubs and still beat most encounters.
    vent is lively.
    good balance of melee and range dps, but also more competition.
    is harder logistically for leadership to manage.

    15mans:
    2x tanks, 4x healers, 9x dps (4 melee, 5 range). a pretty good mix i'd say; especially heals and dps. melee shouldn't be shafted as much either.
    frees up resources at blizz since they would only have to focus on one raid size.
    shouldn't be much harder to manage logistically than 10's and tons more easier than 25's.
    only going off on pvp size for AB, EotS and SSM (15man BGs) the feel is a lot more epic than 10mans.
    And here comes the bullshit about 10 mans being harder again..

  10. #70
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    One thing I don't think anyone has touched on yet to is the fact that if they did find a way to incentivize the organizers of 25s then it is entirely possible that we'll see people who have no business leading trying to organize 25s. Or perhaps the raid leaders in guilds start trying to force 25 mans. If it's established that 25 mans require more out of the leaders than a 10, then who's to say the pool wouldn't be polluted if they did do this and thus souring the people who might be interested in 25 man raiding.
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  11. #71
    My solution for the whole thing would be:

    1) Go back to roughly the WOTLK style of 25 man raids drop half a tier higher loot (6 ilevels).
    2) Leave the lockout system the same, no one can do 25 and 10 in the same week.
    3) Tune 25 mans to be half a tier of gear more difficult to account for the increased gear level.

    In this system 25 man players are rewarded with the very best gear, for the increased "logistical effort". However, that gear isn't -so- much better than 10 man gear that the typical 10 man raider should feel cheated. 10 man raiders won't feel the need to PuG the 25 man versions on off-raiding nights, because they can't anyway (this was the issue in WOTLK before they put 10 and 25 on the same lockout, 10 mans complained about "needing" to pug the 25 man version for better gear on off nights. A silly argument, but that was what people complained about).

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickmagnus View Post
    incentivize the organizers
    Would be the wrong approach anyways. That might be something for pugs and that's about it.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatthefudge View Post
    However, that gear isn't -so- much better than 10 man gear that the typical 10 man raider should feel cheated. .
    even if its only 0.5 item lvl increase, people will feel cheated
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by whatthefudge View Post
    My solution for the whole thing would be:

    1) Go back to roughly the WOTLK style of 25 man raids drop half a tier higher loot (6 ilevels).
    2) Leave the lockout system the same, no one can do 25 and 10 in the same week.
    3) Tune 25 mans to be half a tier of gear more difficult to account for the increased gear level.

    In this system 25 man players are rewarded with the very best gear, for the increased "logistical effort". However, that gear isn't -so- much better than 10 man gear that the typical 10 man raider should feel cheated. 10 man raiders won't feel the need to PuG the 25 man versions on off-raiding nights, because they can't anyway (this was the issue in WOTLK before they put 10 and 25 on the same lockout, 10 mans complained about "needing" to pug the 25 man version for better gear on off nights. A silly argument, but that was what people complained about).
    I think it's been pretty established that if you make the gear better then that is where the playerbase will go.

    If you implemented your suggestions you would just kill 10 man raiding instead. Not exactly a perfect fix.

  15. #75
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Let people do both 25/10 mans instead of just one would not hurt.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatthefudge View Post
    My solution for the whole thing would be:

    1) Go back to roughly the WOTLK style of 25 man raids drop half a tier higher loot (6 ilevels).
    2) Leave the lockout system the same, no one can do 25 and 10 in the same week.
    3) Tune 25 mans to be half a tier of gear more difficult to account for the increased gear level.

    In this system 25 man players are rewarded with the very best gear, for the increased "logistical effort". However, that gear isn't -so- much better than 10 man gear that the typical 10 man raider should feel cheated. 10 man raiders won't feel the need to PuG the 25 man versions on off-raiding nights, because they can't anyway (this was the issue in WOTLK before they put 10 and 25 on the same lockout, 10 mans complained about "needing" to pug the 25 man version for better gear on off nights. A silly argument, but that was what people complained about).
    Half a tier difference is half a tier too much. Blizzard moved away from this sytem for a number of reasons. Those reasons, AFAICS, still exist. Moving back to the old system is therefore not a viable or realistic option at this stage.

    EJL

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    More loot.
    Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

    Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.
    Yeah that would be a great way for 25 mans to just sell loot off each boss to people... WTS what ever you need off every boss in ------ raid 150k. That would totally even stuff out for 10 mans lol.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Half a tier difference is half a tier too much. Blizzard moved away from this sytem for a number of reasons. Those reasons, AFAICS, still exist. Moving back to the old system is therefore not a viable or realistic option at this stage.

    EJL
    And yet that change led to a even greater problem - 25m is as good as vanished. It was a mistake and cannot be fixed. Fixing the old issue in a different way than shared lockouts is far easier I think.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    And yet that change led to a even greater problem - 25m is as good as vanished. It was a mistake and cannot be fixed. Fixing the old issue in a different way than shared lockouts is far easier I think.
    All the top guilds in the world raid 25 bar one.

    How has it vanished?

  20. #80
    The "raid leader" denoted by the game isn't always the raid leader though. I've had ones where the ML and RL were the person who formed the raid but they are quiet the whole time and have someone else lead. On top of that you give raid leaders extra/special loot, you can see people selling the "RL position" in 25 raids for a good sum of money.
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