How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Domiku]

I would be happy with a different achievement just saying 25 man on the end instead of nothing. But meh wont happen.

[Deleted]

What you guy's dont get is, they can and will not be going back. Favor 25man raiding: Piss of the majority of the raiding playerbase, Favor 10man raiding: Piss of your "elite" Playerbase.

- Better items in 25 man raiding: Won't happen... The 10 man raiding playerbase will fell forced to raid 25mans.

- Seperate Lockout: Again.. both sides will just raid both lockouts

We need something, that lets people recognize you are a 25 man raider or a 10 man raider that doesnt give a direct incentive to any of them.

Different Colours? Ok, but still what if someones considers another colour more fitting and feels forced
Free Buffood, enchants? Pls... Everything that gets to your personal pocket is bullcrap
Mounts? No, just NO
More Bonus roll tokens? Are you Insane?

Why do we need to change anything anyway?

Im thinkin about a solution that would please both sides..

It looks to me that those who are still raiding 25 man are doing so for the prestige. This is why they are always trying to get more mounts/loot/titles etc for running 25 over 10. However, most people don't raid for prestige, they do it because it's fun, entertaining. Incentives which please the hardcore make no impression on entertainment raiders and prestige raiders simply don't get the idea of raiding for fun.

Worlds collide.

[Choloz]

It looks to me that those who are still raiding 25 man are doing so for the prestige. This is why they are always trying to get more mounts/loot/titles etc for running 25 over 10. However, most people don't raid for prestige, they do it because it's fun, entertaining. Incentives which please the hardcore make no impression on entertainment raiders and prestige raiders simply don't get the idea of raiding for fun.

Worlds collide.

Prestige raiders raid to have fun, they just do it in a different way. Just because someone is being competitive doesn't mean they aren't enjoying it... some people just don't enjoy raiding with people who consistently make bad mistakes or enjoy a more serious atmosphere.

[Barnabas]

Not really, because it's all non game related.

If you have to travel further to work than the guy in the next cubicle, you won't get paid more.

If you are in a bigger group than the team down the hall but are doing the same job you won't get paid more. The managers might, but the staff won't.

It's purely game related. The larger team runs on a larger budget than the smaller one doing the same job. The way you're putting it in wow is that they have the same budget to maintain both offices. If that was the case then why does popular opinion basically state that they do not?

[Deleted]

- Better items in 25 man raiding: Won't happen... The 10 man raiding playerbase will fell forced to raid 25mans.

And now people who like 25-man feel forced to raid 10-man due to the lack of 25-man's. But that's completely fair in your opinion as long it's not your personal preference feeling forced.

- Seperate Lockout: Again.. both sides will just raid both lockouts

To quote that elitist Injin earlier in the topic: You're not forced to raid both. It's a personal choice.

Just that, why is it a choice to raid 25-man now, and with seperate lockouts raiding 25-man suddenly you lost the choice. Odd if you ask me...

[Domiku]

I raid 25 man because i find it more fun, i enjoy raiding with 24 other people and enjoy being in a big guild. 10 mans are fun don't get me wrong but they can feel a little to personal with small size and stuff. 25 mans just feel more epic and nice to go into for me. Its all down to personal opinions though i guess. I do still love a 10 man every now and then to kick about in and relax though.

Different achievement would be nice or possible armor recolor or something. Keep titles, mounts everything the same no point in disadvantaging any raid setting just make something to tell them apart.

People like to feel like special snowflakes achievements or armor recolor is more than enough to satisfy them types.

[glowpipe]

Why should 25 mans get something extra ? when 25 is clearly easier to do than 10 man raids ?

And for all those who gonna go mental about that statement. See the amount of 10 man guilds that have done 6/6 HC compared to 25 mans.

It was like 12 25 man guilds that cleared mogu HC when there was only 2 10 man guilds. (stats on mmo-champ a lil back)
There is a shit tonne more 10 man guilds. The numbers speak for them selves

[Deleted]

I raid 25 man because i find it more fun, i enjoy raiding with 24 other people and enjoy being in a big guild. 10 mans are fun don't get me wrong but they can feel a little to personal with small size and stuff. 25 mans just feel more epic and nice to go into for me.

This. I like to be in a big guild and go out with a big group of guys. 10-man is a bit too intimate if you ask me.

I also dislike 10-mans due to their finetuning on classes/specs due to a limited roster. Quite some specs get shafted by 10-man.

Why should 25 mans get something extra ?

If you ask yourself that, consider reading the startpost and the related news items. It's not about giving 25 extra's just like that, but to bring back balance in popularity of 25-man's & 10-man's.

[Talen]

And regarding what Ghostcrawler actually said regarding REAL difficulty you may read this to educate your self!

I notice you left the bit where he said is was subjective unbolded....that's the most important part of that quote.

Oh here we go @Espe.
Here's a direct quote from Ghostcrawler's twitter.
You can't get much more direct from Blizz than this.
"Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder." - Ghostcrawler 2012

Keep going though.

You forgot to add the part where he states, quite clearly, that this is a personal subjective opinion. It is NOT a universally acknowledged truth.

EJL

[Deleted]

And now people who like 25-man feel forced to raid 10-man due to the lack of 25-man's. But that's completely fair in your opinion as long it's not your personal preference feeling forced.

Well, its not 10man raidings fault so many 25 manraids break up. They break up because you will never! Ever! get 25 people with hte same skilllevel. Never. There will be "followers". You even have that in every nomal 10 man raid.

Personally as a DPS class I consider everyone who is not above me in DPS a follower. The Difference is, I don't make fun of them or bully them. I try to help them to get theier maximum efficiency... But to be honouts there ist not one single DPS class who should be in a margin under 10% DPS from the 1st one in the DPS charts. Everyone who is permanently in this spot will get kicked/benched from me if he has no proof why this is the case.

If he can explain it to me with a reasonable evidence I'm fine. If not... well go and fuckin improve.

I would raid 25 man... I have no problem with this... but since it is nearly impossible to find 30 raiders, with the same dedication, reliabilety, time investment and progression idea that can raid at the exact time every week for two to three days a week I will not.

I have found 8-10 people that are close to this and i am fine with that. give me 15 more an i will raid 25. I cant find 15 more... I'm sorry not on my Server and I consider my server to be well populated

[Deleted]

I agree with your point, already 25 gives more loot per player and have preferable tactics changes like less adds or more combat resses per player. And recognizing player only cosmetically is good idea. I think there should be different achievments for both modes, different titles and meta prizes (different mounts?). But it should be optional, like - you played 25 and want to get 10 man achievs? You will lost what you achieved before.

[Talen]

Perhaps even too much, considering the lessened personal responsibility in execution. Check my sig for details.

He was talking about 25s as they apply to LFR. I, for one, would not like to be in the 25 Heroic where someone pulled while we were "backfilling".
For LFR, his arguments are very valid, and will mean LFR will remain a cakewalk for any group with even a limited amount of teamwork. For N and H modes? Not so much.

EJL

[araine]

And here you assume the 25 man guild has equal progress. Which it most likely won't. This is because in most situations, the raid leader could take the 10 best players and progress MORE on 10 man then they can in 25. Just as written in the blue post.

Thats not a reason for more freebie loot for 25mans kick the baddies and replace them with top notch and you will get better and more loot.

[KaPe]

Thats not a reason for more freebie loot for 25mans kick the baddies and replace them with top notch and you will get better and more loot.

Damn, why didn't I think of this earlier. Just point me toward the nearest tree that's growing those 'top notch' players and it will solve all of 25s problems.

[Talen]

Maybe I should post my cold hard statistics again.

You could try posting an unbiased analysis of them as well. That might help. Otherwise, that graph is just as misleading as Espe's sig.

us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7178648110?page=1

There's my stance on the topic.
It has nothing to do with 25s getting more, half way through that post I suggest giving 10mans more loot actually.

None of those ideas are viable unless Blizzard wants to change the viability of 10s. Shared lockouts and the other changes exist for a reason.

EJL

[araine]

I think it's been pretty established that if you make the gear better then that is where the playerbase will go.

If you implemented your suggestions you would just kill 10 man raiding instead. Not exactly a perfect fix.

They dont care all they want is 10mans to disband left and right so they can get a couple warm bodies for the 25man. That it will basically destroy 90% of all raiding guilds is something they dont give a shit about

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 12:38 PM ----------

And now people who like 25-man feel forced to raid 10-man due to the lack of 25-man's. But that's completely fair in your opinion as long it's not your personal preference feeling forced.

To quote that elitist Injin earlier in the topic: You're not forced to raid both. It's a personal choice.

Just that, why is it a choice to raid 25-man now, and with seperate lockouts raiding 25-man suddenly you lost the choice. Odd if you ask me...

Noone is forcing you to run 10mans whilst it is 100% a force to run 25mans if you put better loot there. if you are ok with better loot in 25mans you should also not object to 10mans getting better loot if that gets brought up as a suggestion. But i know you will not approve of that so naturally we shouldnt approve of it in 25mans either. Like i said noone is forcing you to run 10mans, get 25 elite and run 25man and dont spend time worrying about what folks do in 10mans.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 12:42 PM ----------

Damn, why didn't I think of this earlier. Just point me toward the nearest tree that's growing those 'top notch' players and it will solve all of 25s problems.

Not my problem you cant find the players. Just because your recruitment is crappy you think that is a reason for more freebie loot??? a 10 man guild with 1 person recruiting in trade etc is no more different than the bigger 25man guild putting 3 people to do it. same relative work load since you are a bigger guild explain to me why 25mans should get extras for doing the same time investment????

[Heathy]

If they reverted the change to the lockouts and gave 25s their higher ilvl back, there is nothing to complain about, epeen can be gained by the 25s, and 10 mans can still pug or simply merge with another guild for a day to raid the 25man, there was nothing wrong with the previous model it simply came down to entitlement and nothing more, why feel like your missing out if your focused on one tier anyway, if your doing 10 man, the gear you gain from that raid is balanced around the content your doing, if you raid 25 man the ilvl was balanced around the content that your doing.. 10 mans feeling like they needed the higher ilvl were kidding themselves, but was it fun to attain some 25man gear to run your 10 mans, yes, there was some dynamic in it, did you need to do that.. no not really but it helped a bit maybe to the point where the 25 man ilvl trivialised the 10 man content, but that was down to ppl farming like they had a purpose.

meh you can't please everyone with this, i feel there never was a problem with it before until ppl seem to make it their problem. i never heard of ppl complaining that zg didn't drop better gear than mc.. or that aq 20 drop extremely sub par gear to aq40.. i guess its just the way it is now. no matter how much effort you put in you deserve equal reward.

[Talen]

If they reverted the change to the lockouts and gave 25s their higher ilvl back, there is nothing to complain about, epeen can be gained by the 25s, and 10 mans can still pug or simply merge with another guild for a day to raid the 25man, there was nothing wrong with the previous model it simply came down to entitlement and nothing more

No. There was a lot wrong with the old model. That's why it was changed.

EJL

[Heathy]

the main reason being the badge inflation, thats not exactly a good reason to cut ppls fun in half each week.

[Deleted]

If they reverted the change to the lockouts and gave 25s their higher ilvl back, there is nothing to complain about, epeen can be gained by the 25s, and 10 mans can still pug or simply merge with another guild for a day to raid the 25man, there was nothing wrong with the previous model it simply came down to entitlement and nothing more, why feel like your missing out if your focused on one tier anyway, if your doing 10 man, the gear you gain from that raid is balanced around the content your doing, if you raid 25 man the ilvl was balanced around the content that your doing.. 10 mans feeling like they needed the higher ilvl were kidding themselves, but was it fun to attain some 25man gear to run your 10 mans, yes, there was some dynamic in it, did you need to do that.. no not really but it helped a bit maybe to the point where the 25 man ilvl trivialised the 10 man content, but that was down to ppl farming like they had a purpose.

meh you can't please everyone with this, i feel there never was a problem with it before until ppl seem to make it their problem. i never heard of ppl complaining that zg didn't drop better gear than mc.. or that aq 20 drop extremely sub par gear to aq40.. i guess its just the way it is now. no matter how much effort you put in you deserve equal reward.

What about guys like us? Our Realm started dying this expansion. Nearly every guild (2 - 20+) is recruiting (spamming /2 for player search) or is already dead. Shared lockouts would be devestating for us (our Realm).