How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Ragedaug]

Read my post carefully, it is just a fact that if the chances are the same for anyone to screw up / DC, the chance on someone doing so in a 25m raiding is simply larger than in a 10m raid. With the current content having quite some mechanics that will basically just wipe you if someone fucks up, the chances on a 25m raid wiping on this is larger. To give an example: debuff on feng heroic p1. There is nothing to cover for, nothing to rez, you will just fucking wipe.

Now you are taking it off topic, though to your defense, it does speak to some of the difficulty challenges of each raid size.

In my 25 man progression during WotLK we had a minimum of 5-10 players dead on the floor for each first time boss kill as well as constant player d/c's and easily has 1-3 players dead on every fight, even on farm night. In contrast having 1 person die with no battle rez would lead to a wipe probably 90% of the time in 10 man progression.

As far as raid awareness goes. I had to pay more attention to fight mechanics and what everyone was doing in all of the 10 man guilds I progressed with, whereas I only ever had to watch my own character in 25 mans. 25 mans were always the easier format for me personally as a raider.

[Deleted]

Letting 25-mans drop gear that's already been upgraded once would be a decent option. So for example 10-man would drop ilvl 520 gear that you can upgrade twice to 528. 25-man would drop ilvl 524 gear that you can upgrade once to 528. Both difficulties would get the same gear eventually, but 25-man would get it sooner and with less need for valor.

[Deleted]

Read my post carefully, it is just a fact that if the chances are the same for anyone to screw up / DC, the chance on someone doing so in a 25m raiding is simply larger than in a 10m raid. With the current content having quite some mechanics that will basically just wipe you if someone fucks up, the chances on a 25m raid wiping on this is larger. To give an example: debuff on feng heroic p1. There is nothing to cover for, nothing to rez, you will just fucking wipe.

The other point about fights being brutal on 10m is quite debatable, but its probably best if I don't do that in a topic that is about something completely different.

'I told ppl to stfu because they started talking about 25vs10 difficulty' - you

Stick to your convictions then and stop acting in contradiction. Your are your own worse enemy as i still have yet to see you make ONE single useful post regarding the threads topic.

And you have the nerve to say i'm polluting this thread. Behave. I've come up with what I think was a fair solution - more than you're trying to do to save 25 man clearly.

Your abusive acidic behaviour is what makes players despise people like you. Which can have the adverse effect on the topic you implied you so dearly want to save.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 02:23 PM ----------

Well even if that was true, appearantly Blizzard doesn't think that is enough.

The players are saying its not enough, Blizzard are trying to find out what is enough - without demeaning either/or raid size. Regardless that, as they stand, they are equal in everything but organisation.
And even then thats down to player initiative not the games design.

[Vulgrym]

In my 25 man progression during WotLK we had a minimum of 5-10 players dead on the floor for each first time boss kill as well as constant player d/c's and easily has 1-3 players dead on every fight, even on farm night. In contrast having 1 person die with no battle rez would lead to a wipe probably 90% of the time in 10 man progression.

No idea how late you killed HLK, but if you had ONE person dead in 25M during *actual* progression, you were going to miss a check somewhere. Just like if you had 1 person dead during H.Rag P3 (for example), you weren't going to make the DPS check during *actual* progression.

This tired argument only applies to easy heroics and normal modes.

[Wildtree]

It could (have a chance) to contain unique stat-less transmog-gear, or a mount.

on the last boss, and it only spawns when all other bosses in the raid are killed....
otherwise I see abuse to happen.

[Deleted]

How about stuff like:
- Less run time from death to boss in 25
- Easier repair options in 25
- Summons/teleports to 25 raids (i dunno how this would work)
- easy reforging access or reagents in 25

Ie. easier logistics related to 25 to make up for the logistics needed to get 25 ppl together.

That is not the logistics problem and would solve nothing , the problem in running a 25m guild is in finding and especially in keeping your raiders ,compared to a 10m guild it's almost a 2nd job to keep a guild running 25mans.
Can't see how some gold/food/flasks are going to be any incentive for gleader/officers to pick up all that extra work and raiders them self wouldn't care about extra perks/loot for the guild.
Most these ideas reward the raiders that basicly do little more as show up on time (hopefully) and do not much to actually help the gleadership or make it easier to recruit/keep the raiders.
Imo only incentive that will make it easier is go back to the old model, beter gear in 25m, that is what people care about , not other crap as flasks/gold/free food etc (something many guilds have no problem providing for free anyway) really.

[Radalek]

You post is wrong. Before ppl did 25 to get better loot, now many ppl do 10 man because it is easier to find 10 man guild due to ppl not wanting to deal with difficulties of leading 25 man guild which results in too few 25 man guilds for all ppl that wanna raid in them. You would be surprised at how many ppl raid 10 mans but would rather raid in 25 mans

There was a poll made recently which said that 43% of the people that raid 10 man at the moment would like to raid 25 instead if they could.

[Deleted]

Personally i preferred the WotLK style with diff loot tables and difficulty but since that's not gonna happen why not make it so that every player in a 25man raid gets a free bonusroll that can contain gear, flasks, gems etc after each boss kill

[Deleted]

Letting 25-mans drop gear that's already been upgraded once would be a decent option. So for example 10-man would drop ilvl 520 gear that you can upgrade twice to 528. 25-man would drop ilvl 524 gear that you can upgrade once to 528. Both difficulties would get the same gear eventually, but 25-man would get it sooner and with less need for valor.

Would make the competition uneven and force 10m players to play 25m to get better gear to progress in 10m. Would not reward those behind the curtains in 25m who are doing the logistics as it'd reward all the 25m players equally making the reward unfair. Would make 10m players rage as it takes them the same amount of time to clear content, but having to do additional content besides it (such as dailies, challenge modes, LFD, LFR, etc; the stuff raiders don't want to do "anymore").

[Deleted]

SO please quote me one dev saying that they know what 10-man raiders think. For gods sake it's you guys who really think they are a majority. And you aren't.

I raid 10 man. I run that 10 man while we have another one going. I know excactly what will happen should we attempt to return to 25 now. I have been there, till firelands. It was leading nowhere for a casual guild.

A LOT of people play 10-man because they enjoy it. And I also know a LOT of people who play 25-man because they think they are more competitive and more recognized but would want to play 10-man.

The % of the people that still raid 25 and would actually prefer 10 man is negligible. The oposite is not negligible at all.

In the end nobody can tell, even Blizzard can't read minds, and you can't either. So before saying of how narrow minded I am, consider your statement too please.

Blizzard has numbers.
Blizzard knows how many guilds downsized after hitting a wall as 25 which they roflstomped afterwards by cherry picking the 10 best raiders.
Blizzard knows how many people run guilds even now with multiple 10 man teams both because they dont wanna leave their raiders outside raiding and to be ready to return to 25s as soon as this is possible.
Blizzard know how many got excluded from raiding and they can raid no more.
Blizzard know how many quited the game after being unable to continue as 25 and how many quited the game because they dont like this raiding model.

Blizzard knows m8. They cannot know what is in every individual's mind but when you have the total of all numbers you can make very safe conclusions

15man would be a solution in the end, but you can't implement that in a simple way. It is not that easy, like just tweaking some numbers. The 10-man / 25-man model needed YEARS until they got to the point in MOP where they are pretty balanced (Can't think of the start of cataclysm...).
If you want to switch to 15-man (or similar) it needs a lot of hard work, and it will be very tough for every 10-man raiding guild out there (like 5x more than 25man guilds?) to find those extra 5-7 people to raid with them.

15 man raids is a very easily attainable number for all those 10 people guilds out there that dont have to cancel raids.
My mind goes to all those people i am turning down, not because we re a progressed guild and stuff and we re picky, but because they cannot be accomodated as raiders in one of our two teams and they want to join in order to raid.
I cant even imagine how many people are out there, unable to raid and how many more the succesfull guilds are turning down.
In short, 15 man raids will be more of a problem for the remaining 25s rather than the 10 ppl teams that they would have either to run 2 teams to keep their people happy, but at the cost of raiding seperately (what many ex casual 25s are going through right now that is), or let 12-15 people just go.

Still because the number of 25s is quite small and even in their ranks there is a significant amount of people that thinks that all this mess doesnt worth it anymore, the transition wont be so devastating.
Never the less, whatever it will happen initially the benefits are so many, that compined with the fact that we have at last a level playing field, will make things settle down fast and with minimum impact.
For me 15-20 people teams are superior both than 10 and 25. Simply because they can include enough versality and the unique feeling that you re part of smt big, and unique, but without the nightmare of recruiting and organizing a very big roster that is essential for 25s.
Also, the more the people the larger the bench, the smaller the size the bigger the reliability from "that great player" that his absence will devastate the hole team.

There are some 10 mans right now that if they lose 1-2 people they will be so much altered that might disband (not talking about the leader).
And there are some 25s that in order to function without cancelling raids they need 10 ppl bench, which means a lot of dissapointed people that have to sit out every time there is a raid.

[Raelbo]

I'll repeat myself and say it again: the question is how and not should we.

Well to be fair, the question of how becomes irrelevant if the answer to should we is no.

That being said, let's assume that we should do something to "save" 25 man raiding, but at the same time accept that if these measures are not sufficient, then perhaps we need to revisit the question of whether or not it is actually worth saving.

So first off, the rewards of a raid format should not bias people to raid a format that they don't prefer. This was the intention of equalising loot rewards, achievements, titles and mounts between the 2 raid formats. To try and make the choice entirely about preference.

In other words, these rewards need to target people who genuinely prefer 25 man raiding, and people sitting on the fence, but they must not end up compelling people who prefer 10 man raiding to raid 25 man.

People who genuinely have a preference for 25 man raiding, as far as I am concerned, need no incentive. They will raid 25 man for the love of raiding 25 man raiding given a reasonable opportunity to do so. Most of these people probably don't raid 25 man simply because there aren't enough people on their server who want to raid 25 man and can fit in the same schedule.

An obvious solution to this problem is to create the possibility of cross realm raiding.

Which just leaves the question of rewarding the fence sitters to entice them back to 25 man raiding - simply to make up the numbers needed. This is especially important for raidleaders, because I agree that for a raidleader who has no real preference between 10 and 25 man, going 10 man is a pretty obvious solution.

Here I like the idea of making feasts and cauldrons easier to organise for 25 man raids. The fact is that in many 25 man raidgroups, the responsibilities for preparing these falls to a few individuals. Having to gather more materials to make bigger feasts/more flasks for a 25 man raid is definitely a de-incentive for any raidleader. Make it so that feasts work regardless of raid size, and provide 25 man guilds with cauldrons that require the same mats as 10 flasks, and you are golden. Other similar logistics ideas: Make a mass summon that allows you to summon the raid into a 25 man instance; Increase the gold reward for a Raid Challenge to 3K.

Secondly, the earlier suggestion of making some gear drops in 25 man drop "pre-VP-upgraded" gear is a great one. I don't recommend having all the gear drop as upgraded, maybe make it a chance per item. Or alternatively have bosses drop tokens that can be used to do the upgrade without having to spend the valor. I like this idea because it isn't giving 25 man raiders anything that you can't get in 10 man raiding, but it is a worthwhile reward that should see a decent number of fence sitters switch sides.

Thirdly, rewarding extra VP for 25 man raid bosses is another great idea. Currently people are running a lot of dailies to cap their VP for the week. By adding that reward to 25 man raiding, it rewards the extra "effort" by saving a bit of "effort" on the daily front.


The following ideas need to be dismissed outright because they fail to meet the objective of encouraging people to run the raid format they prefer:
1) Returning to separate lockouts: This "forces" a bunch of raiders to run both locks every week
2) Creating separate achievements: This "forces" the achievement hunters to run both locks and hurts both 10 and 25 man raiders
3) Giving exclusive rewards to 25 man raiders: This "forces" a bunch of people into 25 man raiding who would rather be raiding 10 man.

[Deleted]

Personally i preferred the WotLK style with diff loot tables and difficulty but since that's not gonna happen why not make it so that every player in a 25man raid gets a free bonusroll that can contain gear, flasks, gems etc after each boss kill

Would reward everyone equally instead of specifically those who put effort into the logistics (generally the officer team). Unfair risk/reward. Would force competitive 10m raiding guilds into playing 25m.

[Sneekin]

The raid lead of a 25 man should be able to select one person to receive a free coin roll off of each boss and they can change this between bosses. This rewards only the the raid lead(s) and gives them a shot at additional loot.

[Deleted]

Would make the competition uneven and force 10m players to play 25m to get better gear to progress in 10m. Would not reward those behind the curtains in 25m who are doing the logistics as it'd reward all the 25m players equally making the reward unfair. Would make 10m players rage as it takes them the same amount of time to clear content, but having to do additional content besides it (such as dailies, challenge modes, LFD, LFR, etc; the stuff raiders don't want to do "anymore").

The competition is already uneven, because can run 25-mans and funnel most gear upgrades from the 25-man to a core group of 10-man raiders. So by that logic you're already forced to do 25-mans to progress.

[Deleted]

well, remove the gear from drop then, make it mats and vanity items instead.

[Deleted]

'I told ppl to stfu because they started talking about 25vs10 difficulty' - you

Stick to your convictions then and stop acting in contradiction then. Your are your own worse enemy as i still have yet to see you make ONE single useful post regarding the threads topic.

And you have the nerve to say i'm polluting this thread. Behave. I've come up with what I think was a fair solution - more than you're trying to do to save 25 man clearly.

Your abusive acidic behaviour is what makes players despise people like you. Which can have the adverse effect on the topic you implied you so dearly want to save.



The players are saying its not enough, Blizzard are trying to find out what is without demeaning eitehr or raid size. Regardless that as they stand they are equal in everything but organisation.
And even then thats down to player initiative not the games design.

Yes, because people keep challenging me and keep bringing it up.

And, to get on-topic, your solution is to seperate realm firsts. There is just no way that this will fix the actual problem, since the people on top aren't the ones with the problems, they'll just feed on the guilds below them. Its the middle of the pack that is suffering. At the very least seperate the meta-achievements and titles for 10/25, not just realm firsts like you are suggesting.

My solution is one that I've already given before and has been discussed before in many topics. I posted at the start of this topic it should be something substantial, but not giving my own 2 cents because I'm sure it will be burned to the ground by "acidic" people like you, but here you have it: just give back the item level difference like it used to be, or perhaps even slightly smaller than that.

[Deleted]

More loot.
Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.

Yea cus 25man needs more loot amirite

If anything 10mans should get 1 loot decided as they usually have 1 person who can use each item. If you get same loot two weeks in a row it will most certainly be sharded.

[Deleted]

25man is already easier, look at the pull amounts on heroic kills between top10man and top 25man guilds. Like 25man deserves some extra rewards when they already get more loot per ppl and bosses are easier.

[Ryanlol]

My opinion, 25mans have more people which is more people to spread the logistics onto

That's like telling 9 women to make a baby in 1 month.

[Deleted]

I think a message on the screen that says "Good on you! You managed to get 25 people here, good on you!" with the achievement for the boss-kill. :-D