How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Blueobelisk]

Lol at conversation going on. The reason they made LFR 25m as opposed to 10m is because it's easier to carry the noobs on 25m than it would be on 10m. On 10m if someone sucks the group is finished, on 25m LFR if someone sucks you can get by better.

[Moggie]

Getting rid of shared lockouts would fix the whole "25s are dying" thing. If you can only pick one of course people will take the path of least resistance but, with a choice at least some people would do both.

See, this sort of thought doesn't seem to make sense. So you want separate lockout between 25 vs. 10 so those 25mans can do 10mans....? Really? Wasn't the whole point to keep 25mans it's own special snowflake? And just because Blizz claims dailies and such aren't required like some job for raiding, doesn't make it true tbh. That was a laughable statement and an arrogant one that no raider actually believes. So you get two seperate lockouts. Grats, just made more raids required. And if you don't do both, then you're F'd.

[Deleted]

People seek the path of least resistance, its just like a power current and that is why 10 man normal/heroic raids are so popular atm you said it yourself.

Well theres your answer then.

Make 25 man much, much easier and lo, it will be very popular again.

Problem?

[Prokne]

So you are saying in wows population it's easier to find raiders for a 25 man than for 10s?

Funny that they aren't as popular, really....

You really need to understand what people write before posting about it. The way LFR groups are put together is not the same as normal raids. LFR is a cross server feature -> lots of players available. 25 mans are dying because they are server specific, server populations are lowering, and loot focused people find 10man easier to get loot.

For 25 mans to gain ground Blizzard has to probably do 1 of 2 things:

Provide an incentive to raid 25s so people who do whichever one is faster loot might switch back to 25.
Open normal/heroic raiding to cross realm groups during the current tier which would raise the recruitment pool for 25s so people who cant raid 25s(low server pop) and want to can join a 25 man raiding group.

[Deleted]

You really need to understand what people write before posting about it. The way LFR groups are put together is not the same as normal raids. LFR is a cross server feature -> lots of players available. 25 mans are dying because they are server specific, server populations are lowering, and loot focused people find 10man easier to get loot.

For 25 mans to gain ground Blizzard has to probably do 1 of 2 things:

Provide an incentive to raid 25s so people who do whichever one is faster loot might switch back to 25.
Open normal/heroic raiding to cross realm groups during the current tier which would raise the recruitment pool for 25s so people who cant raid 25s(low server pop) and want to can join a 25 man raiding group.

I'm sorry - if it's easier to pull 25 people together due to amount of classes in LFR, why doesn't this translate into a normal raid?

It's the exact same population, after all.

And I just solved the problem of 25 man raids - make them comically easy and everyone will do them.

[Prokne]

I'm sorry - if it's easier to pull 25 people together due to amount of classes in LFR, why doesn't this translate into a normal raid?

It's the exact same population, after all.

And I just solved the problem of 25 man raids - make them comically easy and everyone will do them.

Its not the same population. LFR population = 5 million (badly est for NA realms) while server pop = 2000.

And I can also solve the problem in an unsuitable way - remove 10 man raids.

[Deleted]

Its not the same population. LFR population = 5 million (badly est for NA realms) while server pop = 2000.

And I can also solve the problem in an unsuitable way - remove 10 man raids.

Your server pop will simply be a smaller version of your battle group pop. So why would anything change?

You've got x % tank, y% healers, and z% dps. Same ease of group forming compared to 10 man for both LFR and normal.

And why is my suggestion unsuitable? A fine reward for 25 man being harder on the logistics is making them cakewalk fights.

[Alltat]

Shamelessly dropping by 40 pages into the thread to say that as long as it's just a few people in a 25 man raid (typically the raid leader and one or more guild officers) who actually handle all the logistics, it's ridiculous to reward all the other 20+ people who don't actually do more than they would in a 10 man raid. I used to raid lead 40 man raids. I was the guild master of a 25 man raiding guild for years. I know that 25 man raiding requires a lot more effort than 10 man raiding on the part of the raid/guild leader. The catch is that it doesn't require any more effort on the part of anyone else. If there was some good way to reward the person/people who actually handled the logistics of the larger raid size, I'd love it. But simply giving 25 people better rewards because one or two of them put in extra effort is silly.

One of LFR's primary reasons for staying in the 25m format is Q times for DPS.

It's pretty much the only reason, though "it's more epic" is probably a small part of it too. Note that this has nothing to do with how "hard" it is or isn't. It's just about how long you have to wait in the queue to get a group.

Statistically speaking, they are the same ratio so what you are saying has no merit.

Yes. No. Maybe. The chances of getting at least one competent healer are far higher in a 25 man. In a ten man raid with two PUG healers, it's not unlikely that both are horrible. In a 25 man raid with six PUG healers, it's far less likely that they'll all be horrible. The extremes of "all good healers" and "all bad healers" become far less likely as the raid size increases. Distribution curves and all that. The overall good:bad ratio will be the same, but a bigger raid size makes the extremes less likely.

[Dvaldin]

At first glance, it would seem the easiest route would be to offer better loot in upgrades...but then there's still the progression...

guild runs 10s to gear for 25s
guild loses members who have upgraded because they don't have enough members upgraded to do 25s

Better gear doesn't solve the problem. It only brings back a former one.

[Deleted]

Shamelessly dropping by 40 pages into the thread to say that as long as it's just a few people in a 25 man raid (typically the raid leader and one or more guild officers) who actually handle all the logistics, it's ridiculous to reward all the other 20+ people who don't actually do more than they would in a 10 man raid. I used to raid lead 40 man raids. I was the guild master of a 25 man raiding guild for years. I know that 25 man raiding requires a lot more effort than 10 man raiding on the part of the raid/guild leader. The catch is that it doesn't require any more effort on the part of anyone else. If there was some good way to reward the person/people who actually handled the logistics of the larger raid size, I'd love it. But simply giving 25 people better rewards because one or two of them put in extra effort is silly.


It's pretty much the only reason, though "it's more epic" is probably a small part of it too. Note that this has nothing to do with how "hard" it is or isn't. It's just about how long you have to wait in the queue to get a group.


Yes. No. Maybe. The chances of getting at least one competent healer are far higher in a 25 man. In a ten man raid with two PUG healers, it's not unlikely that both are horrible. In a 25 man raid with six PUG healers, it's far less likely that they'll all be horrible. The extremes of "all good healers" and "all bad healers" become far less likely as the raid size increases. Distribution curves and all that. The overall good:bad ratio will be the same, but a bigger raid size makes the extremes less likely.

I agree with pretty much everything you said and that is why there cant be any real reward in doing 25 man raids. However something such as seperate server first achivements (of course with date on) would help immensely, I would even go as far as saying that all the servers that dont have a 25 man guild would suddenly see 1-2 25 man guilds form as some people might think they could get those achievements easily. Something like that would also have some requirements, say if you have gained too many 25 man achievements in the past you cant just steal the 10 man server first achievement.

Another thing that could be done is give items either fully upgraded or halfway upgraded, that way the more hardcore setting which is believe to be 25 man dont have to spend as long trying to farm valor points for item upgrades. This would of course only work if 10 man guilds can get the items upgraded imediatly asuming they put in the time for farming valor and that might mean that blizzard would have to remove the VP cap. They could also make a whole new currency for upgrading items that can be farmed with no cap, then 25 man raiders wouldnt have an item advantage.

[Heathy]

too much entitlement though, ppl that want to do 10 mans but get the best gear, can't exist in the same world as ppl that want to be rewarded better gear for doing 25mans.

its funny because originally there was only 1 size of raid, if you didn't have enough ppl you either recruited more or just didn't raid..

the mentality behind blizzard and their 'we want everyone to see the content' along with 'we 10 man raiders want equal rewards'.. its 2 conflicting ideologies, you either reward ppl for putting in the extra effort, while simultaneously giving players the option to expand, or you lose one size of raid to the other. i'm quite sure the players that still do 25s will always do them because they feel more epic with more players, yet it will get harder to see more guild expanding into them when there is no reason to do so. (beyond it looking more epic ofc)

they have created a situation where, everyone EXPECTS to get what they want, previously you WORKED toward a goal, which was raiding in general, now that they want everyone to see everything, its created a self entitlement 'well im puttin effort, i deserve to be rewarded for it no matter what size of raid i do'.

when in fact, 10 man guilds should aspire to have a 25man component, not 25 man guilds wishing they were 2 10 man guilds.

maybe it would be better if they did bring back a least one main tier raid that was 25 man only while having a separate 10 man raid like zg za and aq, that model worked better because ppl WANTED to expand into the bigger raids and achieve more epeen, now that its trivialized there is no desire just that ppl want less hassle, the option is a great idea, the execution is bad, the ability to grow a guild shouldn't stop when you have a core 10 man, there should be the drive to work toward bigger raids, if you don't, its not the end of the world, if you do, well, here is your epeen, enjoy.

10 and 25 man should be considered separate aspects of wow, just like pve and pvp are 2 separate aspects of wow, 5 mans are a separate aspect of wow, just because they are both raids, it does not mean they should be the same or reward the same. if you are a 10 man guild that wants the same gear as a 25 man guild, recruit more f**kin ppl and do 25 mans, really..

if ppl started saying 'well i can only get 5 friends together, can we get 5 man raids, but we also want the same rewards as 10 and 25s' no get 5 more ppl and do 10 mans .. :/

[Rezhial]

As a raid leader of a 25 man, I would LOVE for some small incentive to keep people more interested in 25's. Granted I'm not sure we NEED one, but it would sure as hell help with recruiting....

[redd]

Another thing that could be done is give items either fully upgraded or halfway upgraded, that way the more hardcore setting which is believe to be 25 man dont have to spend as long trying to farm valor points for item upgrades. This would of course only work if 10 man guilds can get the items upgraded imediatly asuming they put in the time for farming valor and that might mean that blizzard would have to remove the VP cap. They could also make a whole new currency for upgrading items that can be farmed with no cap, then 25 man raiders wouldnt have an item advantage.

Bolded part: this discussion isn't even about 'the hardcore.' Hardcore 25 man raiding is alive and well. It's the 25 man raids that aren't hardcore. Even the anecdotal posts in this thread confirm that. "My guild broke up because 2 random fags wouldn't show up consistently and we had no bench." "We had like 15 good raiders then 10 people being carried because they were lazy/bad/didn't read dungeon journal/watch boss movies/whatever." "My vagina hurts from trying to recruit people for my 25m 5 hour a week guild." Etc etc.

Top 100 guilds aren't suffering the logistical problem of having 25(more even) skilled and dedicated players, and stressing the GM/RL/Officers to corral a ragtag group of get-carried-fags to competitive heroic kills. Dangling carrots for 'the hardcore' doesn't even come close to addressing the issue in the first place, all it would do is completely break an already not perfect divide between competitive 10 and 25 mans at the top level of raiding(where 25 is still just clearly superior, for reasons very much off topic to this thread).

[Elysara]

I honestly think they should remove 25 mans and invent the 15 man raids. It would solve alot of turmoil in guilds having to have seperate groups because too many people want to be on the 'main' group. I understand nowadays there is a 'very' small fraction of people that raid 25. But 'literally' NO ONE raids 25 mans anymore besides Top world guilds for e-peen status, It is all 10 mans. Because counting on 10 people to show up on the raid day is easier than counting on 17 other people showing up. As well as heroics are easier as with 10 people you have less of a chance to screw up and if anyone does you can clearly tell who.

15 mans! Work on it Blizzard

[araine]

Loot is already so much worse on 10 man than 25 man that if it isn't enough of an advantage yet for 25s, it's never going to be. On tier token dropping bosses, you get one token, and one piece of loot. In 7 months of farming H-DS in an hour every week, I never once got the mail agi boots off H-Hagara, and I was in for every kill against her.

Exactly loot is already favored towards 25mans big time. Any more and it will just be grossly unfair. If anything extra should be given out it should be in the form of the occasional feasts and or a box of flasks or a bigger chunk of change in form of gold coins for the guildbank. You know covering some of that extra work you always claim you have. If we remove the occasional feast creating or flask making you dont have that more work argument anymore.

[Heathy]

15 mans! Work on it Blizzard

I guess the ideal system would be one that scales entirely on the amount of players you bring, since no matter what size raids they make, 15, 20 etc, there will always be times when you either have not enough or too many so having raids that simply scale in difficulty and loot would be the best, then guilds can eventually work toward better loots without too much effort in terms of keeping ppl showing up, since you would be able to consistently raid with any amount of players.

i don't doubt such a system would be easy to implement although they do already have scaling and they do have mechanics in the game that can differentiate between specs, ie the game can pick and choose specs so adapting that around a scaling system, so 1 healer adds x amount more health and damage or adds etc.. it probably is not that far fetched. you have to remember that blizzard have the numbers and they know the maximum potential of each class so, it really would be just a number crunch for each additional class above 10 or below 25.

[ShadowCrafter]

I think 25 man raiding is on the way out. Darksorrow EU horde just lost there last 2 remaining 25 man raiding guilds. Antipathy at the beginning of the xpac and Muffin Militia called it quits 2 days ago. This will ultimately kill off the horde population in the long run.

We had over 16 25 man raiding guilds at the end of WOLTK and a very healthy population as a result.

[Marston]

I guess the ideal system would be one that scales entirely on the amount of players you bring, since no matter what size raids they make, 15, 20 etc, there will always be times when you either have not enough or too many so having raids that simply scale in difficulty and loot would be the best, then guilds can eventually work toward better loots without too much effort in terms of keeping ppl showing up, since you would be able to consistently raid with any amount of players.

i don't doubt such a system would be easy to implement although they do already have scaling and they do have mechanics in the game that can differentiate between specs, ie the game can pick and choose specs so adapting that around a scaling system, so 1 healer adds x amount more health and damage or adds etc.. it probably is not that far fetched. you have to remember that blizzard have the numbers and they know the maximum potential of each class so, it really would be just a number crunch for each additional class above 10 or below 25.

This would probably be the best solution, but also the one hardest to implement. Even though, if it would scale from anywhere between 10 and 25 or even 40, it would be great. The thing is, how would it affect raiding then? Would everything be balanced for 10 man groups and then tuned up? For 20 man and tuned up and down? For 10 man, 20 man and tuned up or down do something else? How would the loot work? 20% additional chance for an item for every member above 10? So with 12 member, you have 40% chance for an additional loot drop, with 14 you would have 80%? Something completely different?

Scaling raids would definitly solve something, but it would probably create enough more problems. Just as an example, a guild who raids with 15 people vs. one who raids with 14 people. The first guild would always receive one additonal item, the second one has 80%. Now with bad RNG, this extra drop may not drop for several weeks. People would flame again probably.

Still I think, this would be the ultimate solution. If we would go back to a single raidsize 25 man would either have to drop member or 10 man would have to get new ones - or both happens and no one would be that happy.

[Sonrisa]

If you've done HC bosses at all this tier, you are in the top end of raiders.

I know guilds who still can't kill stone guards on normal with any consistency.

No disrespect meant, but those people aren't raiders, they are BAD casual players, and god knows they have more than enough content as it is.

[Shelly]

I think Blizz is right that the best way to bring interest back to 25-man raiding is to add incentive for 25-man raids. Good incentives that would attract the hard-core folks that 25-mans are rather being billed towards would be item drops that had reputation gains turn ins that only show up on 25 - call them like Sha touched Jade or something and put in a vendor at every quartermaster. Loot is another good incentive but only up to a certain point, the faster people gear up the faster it lowers the appeal of content - one flipside for this would be transmog gear, weapons would be a great draw. Then you have options of achievements and other cosmetic things like mounts with a higher drop rate.

I think that the option of rep turn-ins is probably the best. Though I also like random drops that can then be turned in for cosmetic items that drop higher on 25 but are also available on 10.

The only other option is to just make 25-man raids and a few 1-off 10-mans, but I'm not really a fan of that option. I think the single-lockout policy has overall been a pretty good thing. Just wish they'd combine a lot of the legacy loot tables or allow separate lockouts for pre-85 raids.