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  1. #1
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Bleed uptime question?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Keket/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nrc6wo5moo9cdu2q/

    What is the breakdown on the % of rip, rake and melee? Or do they need to be as close to 100% as possible?

    As I'm trying to improve myself (feral is my OS) and if I would know the breakdown of ability % it would maybe give an idea am I doing better or getting worse. I hate being a melee DPS thus it is hard for me to get positioning and things down properly, but I am trying (I must, cause I'm the OT), maybe failing miserable at it.

    As for my talents... I know that DoC is the most DPS offering talent, but I just can't play the spec properly. Using my HT when ever I've used a finisher or NS+HT is just so "wrong" for me. Being wrath kitty (I do have a enchanted caster ilvl 463 wep) is not really my thing. So I chose the talents that make my life easier and keep number of things that I need to track smaller.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  2. #2
    Take this with a grain of salt, because I just woke up. But excuse me if I say, your dps has some serious issue. So, allow me to be of service to you good sir! I'm also our offspec DPS leaving us with a monk and a paladin healer for this fight.

    Bleed uptime should be as close to 100% as you can reasonably get. That fight has movement, namely from one platform to another, but if you refresh bleeds when you know he's going to push transition phases, you can normally keep them rolling as the fight goes on. Looking at the longer of your fight lengths on that fight, you seem to have much better rake uptime than rip uptime. You're going to want to try to bring those both higher. I'd suggest just skipping FB for now, if you're losing uptime on your rip, it isn't exactly worth it.

    Some added thoughts, to perhaps help. Here's my fight where we killed him.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=1746&e=2171
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...daagulf/simple
    (Apologize if it's resto when you look.)

    I've a HotW spec, but you'll find I don't make much use of it on this fight. I do a great deal of damage more than you yes, I have a better weapon, but you're making use of a 20% dmg cd I don't have, and I'm offhealing a lot. If you'll note, I did almost four million healing on my kill. Not all of which was instant cast. And poor HotW never made it for dps.
    Using my HotW for Tranq, getting MC'd twice, Bres, lots of offhealing, innervates, etc. I had a lot of down time that I don't have on some other attempts or kills, this is how my uptime came out.
    Rip with 80.2% uptime and highest damage.
    Rake with 81.6%
    I'd say I was horrible with OoC procs and should of got a million more thrashes in, but I spent a lot of them on extra casts of HT to help heals with exhale and things.

    When you're moving, you can still be dpsing. Boss channeling yellow rings of death? You can run in the circle and still dps him. You shouldn't be losing uptime to anything here but the MC. If you're using NC over HotW and not helping your healers, you should easily push 90% uptime this fight.
    You guys are taking a -lot- of damage from sonic rings. You shouldn't be, it should be a spot that helps your healers get mana back by not having to cast, not one draining it.

    DoC is the clear winner for dps this fight, NV probably pulls ahead of HotW this fight due to the amount of movement it has and the lack of times you can just sit and cast during a hero.

    That said? Your guild keeps just flopping during Forve and Verve. Do what I do. Take HotW, pop HotW and tranq as a set of raid cds. I tranq'd one time with it, for our second force and verve on the platform, it was 1.5 million healing. It easily is enough to get you through.

    TLDR: Thoughts to help your guild progress?
    1. Save your 3minute cds for the platform he casts Force and Verve. Zerk+NV on top of that platform to try to get as few casts of it as possible and still have cds again in last phase.
    2. Work on dps while moving.. and yes, it is okay to clip bleeds if you know he's about to transition and be in the air. Keep that damage rolling.
    3. Your heals are having issue with force and verve, seriously, hotw spec+tranq. Even if you arent a wrathkitty, utilitykitty.

  3. #3
    Quote:

    "I know that the Rake refreshing can be a little disconcerting in the script at times. This is because we have determined that overwriting Rake with more powerful Rakes is a DPS gain. Here is an example of what can happen: The fight starts, you Rake, you Shred, your Bottle of Infinite Stars procs, you Rake again, you Shred, you TF+Berserk, you Rip and then you overwrite Rake a third time. Each time Rake is being overwritten it is because the new Rake will tick for at least 12% more damage. While it is the case that Shred does more damage than Rake, it is not a huge difference and there is no guarantee that you will be casting TF as soon as I just described. You might have an Omen proc for a free Thrash and end up taking several GCDs before casting TF. The bottom line is that simulations show that clipping Rake for a 12% damage increase is always an overall dps up regardless of how much time is left on the Rake.

    The other part of the script that is a little counter-intuitive, especially given the title of this thread is the very aggressive approach it takes for using Ferocious Bites, even when it results in Rip downtime. This is the nature of SotF though. The energy gain from SotF results in a lot of DPS, enough that in general maximizing combo point usage is more important than maximizing Rip uptimes. I still recall the first time aggixx measured this and told me it was close to a 1% dps loss when he took out the aggressive FB code. Once we figured out how to include aggressive SR refreshes in the rotation the dps delta was even more. If you have SotF and try to optimize Rip uptime by wasting combo points, you are losing more DPS than you think.

    The bottom line is that the rotation is not the same as it was in Cata or in Wrath even if you ignore the HTs from DoC or the 45 second hybrid windows of HotW. SotF has had a profound impact on the rotation. Additionally, we now have the ability in Ovale to track and compare the tick damage of Rake and Rip which allows us to be incredibly precise on when to overwrite them. This would have been useful in the past expansions, but it wasn't until we were trying to deal with DoC that the pain of writing an optimized rotation pushed for us to ask for the capability and it was jeshu (Nerien) who offered to and made the enhancements to Ovale for us. BTW, this capability could easily be adapted to the Shadow Priest and Warlock rotations both in Simulationcraft for testing and Ovale for helping people up their dps."

    http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopi...=3&t=976#p9650

    The bottom line is that you don't need to keep your bleeds up 100% of the time, assuming you have SotF (Soul of the Forest) talent. However, if you're just learning the feral rotation, your best bet is to practice keeping up bleeds consistently without letting them fall off for too long; and once you're capable of doing this fairly well, you can worry about the more minute aspects of the feral rotation. You simply need to adapt to the various priorities of being a feral DPSer: the first of which is keeping up SR, Rip and Rake, along with FF, on a consistent basis.
    Last edited by anthemm; 2012-11-14 at 07:35 AM.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    You shouldn't hesitate about rip and rake uptime close to 100% thought with SofT it was a dps lost to keep Rip above 92%

    For all of you guys who don't understand or feel strugling with the Feral rotation i'd advice you to take a look at Ovale with Nerien's Ovale scripts and pick Leafkiller's script within Nerien's addon.

    But to answer the topic; Stronger DoTs thought a medium time(86-92%) is beter then weak DoTs through the whole time(100%) Keep track of Trinket procs and Tiger's Fury uptime and CDs and especially DoC or Nature's Vigil if your using that. But then keep in mind that heavy weave in finishers is what you should do with SofT talent because of the effect it has.

    If rip has more then 8 seconds and SR has more then 5 seconds use Ferocious Bite.
    Also keep in mind that the more CP you use on SR will result in more dps because SR has the same energy cost no matter how many CPs it consumes.

    Edit; Thrash on OoC procs girls!!!
    Last edited by Etapicx; 2012-11-14 at 08:44 AM.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  5. #5
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I do keep DPSing when I move, or well... Toss few mangles and stuff in or try to utilize my 5 cp for rip. But mainly I do focus bit more on moving and avoiding the sonic rings than DPSing. I've played my hunter for the last 2 years and melee mechanics are a pain to master for me. As when I move too far away from boss, regardless of his large hit box, I cant DPS him if I'm too far. Tanking shit is much more easier to me, but our Pala is the MT, so I get to go DPS :/

    I am using the Ovale addon+leafkiller scripts+droodfocus, which has helped so far that give my bleeds more up-time, but I have not figured out a good place to have the things visible, the place where I could keep an eye on the stuff going around me and on which bleed is coming off and which is not. That's why I tend to miss several important things. Although as feral I have only visible the box that shows what skill should I use.

    I do use Rip every time I have 5cp, which means I clip my Rip most of the time. I used FB in the fight, cause I saw it pop on the addon occasionally. Most of the time however I truly lack the energy for something. As my Rip or Rake is just running out, and I don't have enough energy to use any of the skills.

    If I would do choose HotW I just for now forget about the wrath spam and just pop it whenever raid needs some xtra healing?

    EDIT:
    The other things for me is Trash on OoC proc. I am trying to watch it and recently I am managing to hit Trash when I have OoC up, but ehm I usually end up using some other skill in that place.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2012-11-14 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  6. #6
    You really shouldnt be 'clipping' your rip. Refreshing it in the last 3 seconds is ideal. Remember theres nothing wrong with doing nothing for a few seconds while you pool energy and wait for rip to tick down.

    HOTW isnt the burst DPS cooldown it used to be. At this point, you're mostly taking it for the passive increased agility and the utility of it for healing (or tanking if your tank dies)

    Accidentally burning OOC on other abilities, especially during berserk/tf, will happen often, dont sweat it. Also, if you're sitting on a lot of energy, your rip and SR have several seconds each left, its not a bad idea to thrash that energy away and then reapply rip without clipping it.

  7. #7
    play with doc and then clipping your rip with a buffed one is great :P

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    play with doc and then clipping your rip with a buffed one is great :P
    Sort of, its not that simple, but I've got into enough semantics arguments on the mage forums in the past week that I think I'll hold my tongue this time ;P

    Point is, we're talking about someone struggling with feral, complicating it with bleed clipping is not appropriate here.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-14 at 11:17 AM. Reason: removed horn-tooting

  9. #9
    Another thing that hasn't been picked up in the log analysis is your savage roar uptime. For example, in this log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=3143&e=3621 there is only a 72.5% uptime on Savage roar and I can see that you are using the glyph of savage roar which can help to compensate for errors in your rotation where your savage roar might fall off.

    By allowing savage roar to fall off, you arereducing your physical damage done by 30% which includes rake, rip, shred, etc so try and aim for 100% (or close to) uptime on savage roar as well, just a tip.

  10. #10
    You should also use your spirit kings weapon, regardless of what enchant it has.

  11. #11
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    How should I prioritize my finishers: Rip and SR? If I have both falling off, should I wait for enough CP to get 5 and use Rip or just use which ever points I have to get SR up again? If I see that Rip is falling off, is it worth using it even with few CP or let it fall off and wait for 5CP? But I usually try (well still failing...) to use SR when I don't have any CP as not to "waste" them.

    Should I take HotW for the stat boost and the occasional Tranq. which might be needed then?

    This is probably everything to do with my mindset of things, but I just don't feel right to use my tanking gear for DPS, even if it is the weapon (sure the Feng ring is shared with my guardian set, as I don't have anything better for Feral). And my weapon has the best enchant available with dodge proc. I do have my tanking gear with mast/exp and crit/exp gems and as well as recommended enchants for guardians (most of the items, minus the belt are purple quality). In general I doubt that gear would change anything as I'm doing most of the things wrong anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  12. #12
    never rip with less than 5cp, if you have both falling off, refresh roar and then rip on your next 5 CP. you shouldnt run into this problem *too* often once you master the rotation.
    the more CP you SR with the better

    If you're not comfortable with the DoC rotation, I would say yes. Still take SotF though, incarnation is basically only viable if you also take NV, which I really don't suggest.

    If you're hit/exp capped and gearing for crit as a tank (ideally you should be imo) then using your exact tank gear for feral is perfectly viable. Mastery isnt THAT much better than crit for us. Bear in mind however, that if you're geared for crit it does shift some of the priority off of your bleeds.. your rotation will be similar, but expect a different damage spread in logs - a feral performing correctly and stacking mastery will see their bleeds on top, stacking crit you will likely see autoattack up there equal to or above your rip.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Remember theres nothing wrong with doing nothing for a few seconds while you pool energy and wait for rip to tick down..
    Not with SoFT.

    HotW is a dps increase poping it but it really depends when and the weapons you have.

    And yes if you sit on alot of energy and happend to be pooling energy for some reason on your 5th CP then you should use Thrash outside OoC. Ideally you could use to just to burn some energy that just would be wasted right before a Tiger's Fury pop as well.

    When i'm slacking i'm just turning off all tracking addons and follow Ovale works like a sharm because Leafkiller and Pawkets are so great at doing what they'r doing ofc it takes abit time on the dummy to understand the addon and how it's working.

    And as i said above...
    Stronger DoTs thought a medium time(86-92%) is beter then weak DoTs through the whole time(100%) Keep track of Trinket procs and Tiger's Fury uptime and CDs and especially DoC or Nature's Vigil if your using that. But then keep in mind that heavy weave in finishers is what you should do with SofT talent because of the effect it has. If rip has more then 8 seconds and SR has more then 5 seconds use Ferocious Bite. Also keep in mind that the more CP you use on SR will result in more dps because SR has the same energy cost no matter how many CPs it consumes.
    Last edited by Etapicx; 2012-11-14 at 02:56 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Not with SoFT..

    And yes if you sit on alot of energy and happend to be pooling energy for some reason on your 5th CP then you should use Thrash outside OoC. Ideally you could use to just to burn some energy that just would be wasted right before a Tiger's Fury pop as well.
    wat

    arent those statments contradictory of each other? Theres nothing wrong with letting your energy refill to not clip a tick of rip, as long as you dont cap energy, or lose a buff on that new rip in the process

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    wat

    arent those statments contradictory of each other? Theres nothing wrong with letting your energy refill to not clip a tick of rip, as long as you dont cap energy, or lose a buff on that new rip in the process
    Yes your right.
    But what i want to say is that 100% DoT uptime is not ideally what we'r looking for so in most case where we in cata did pool energy or even used a few shreds to not cap energy on 5th CP is far gone.
    The simulation is simulating max dps having 91.5% Rip uptime Rake however was 99.2 http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_...uid_Feral_T14H
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
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  16. #16
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I did log out in my tanking gear.... With the present items, gems and reforges, is it point to use? As I have 465 as feral, with almost all items HC blues.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Yes your right.
    But what i want to say is that 100% DoT uptime is not ideally what we'r looking for so in most case where we in cata did pool energy or even used a few shreds to not cap energy on 5th CP is far gone.
    The simulation is simulating max dps having 91.5% Rip uptime Rake however was 99.2 http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_...uid_Feral_T14H
    I didn't pve feral in cata (or prior) but I see what you're saying. Those values are approximately what I'm seeing in practice; though I'm not shooting for rip downtime, it just happens like that when executing the rotation naturally.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Yes your right.
    But what i want to say is that 100% DoT uptime is not ideally what we'r looking for so in most case where we in cata did pool energy or even used a few shreds to not cap energy on 5th CP is far gone.
    The simulation is simulating max dps having 91.5% Rip uptime Rake however was 99.2 http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_...uid_Feral_T14H
    As dennisdkramer said here, you're looking at a player that's having issues with a lot of the basics of the rotation, play-style and generally just how to dps as feral.
    For this moment, the biggest increase for him is likely going to be simply to work on his debuff uptime, his savage roar uptime and use of OoC procs.

    While I mean no offense to Sonnillon here (And hope you take none sir), it's going to be a lot better for him to start with the simple things and move into it.

    The truth of the matter here is, Etapicx's right, 100% bleed uptime isn't optimal. There is a small gap which was calculated in wrath, which continued through cata, where it is okay to let your rip/rake fall off, if it meant getting a TF+rip/rake off. That time was three seconds for rip. However, because of things like watching for the ICD of your trinket with an addon like NeedtoKnow or Heatsync(when it was updated), that time actually changed. Letting your bleeds fall off for a few more seconds became okay, if you knew your trinket's ICD was about to be up, meaning it would proc in the next few seconds, letting you apply your debuffs with it, if it was a trinket proc that applied (Mastery/Agi/Crit basically). With a DoC rotation things like having NS up or about to be up also come into effect.

    The complexity of the feral spec is something that gets more and more interesting the more you understand the game and the higher numbers you try to milk from it. Right now though, he's really in need of just practicing the basics. Honestly, I'm almost tempted to say that for now he should simply go with NV and work forward from there. Even though it isn't optimal, it's going to help him. (Sonnillon, if you aren't comfortable with DoC, which is a bit more micromanagement, I'd still go with HotW for both raid utility and dps. NV if you're having issues with dealing with HoTW too).

    Sonnillon, something I also feel probably needs to be said to you- Etapicx recommended Ovale, what it is, is an addon and a script that quite literally just tells you what button to press next. Things like this can be very helpful to players having issue with the rotation. It is, however, no substitute for good knowledge of the fight and it's mechanics. Many times will an addon like that tell you one thing, but, because you have a movement phase, or because you get this or that debuff, another is better. An example would be clipping your bleeds because the boss is going to move out of your range. Or because you have to move away from the boss. Or because you've got to perform some sort of utility that will cause your priority to change. Knowing these things is what will cause you to be able to do the most damage you possibly can.

    What this all really boils down to, is practice. Practice keeping your SR up better, your bleeds higher, cooldowns stacked better, movement, everything, always.

  19. #19
    I don't suggest using NV.. but if you do, here's my macro

    /use [form:3]Ravage!
    /use [nomod,stealth]Ravage; [mod:shift,form:1/3]Mangle; [form:1]Mangle; [form:3]Shred
    /use [form:3]Ravage!

    Yes, ravage does need to be on both ends

  20. #20
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I am using Ovale, with leafkiller script, I have only visible the icon which tells me what to use next. But I have not found that good spot to keep my droodfocus buffs/debuffs and stuff+ovale. So I miss few things due to that. But I am trying. My DPS logs http://worldoflogs.com/reports/uhuwn...?s=6147&e=6656 (with my old gear). I think it is bit of an improvement, but Kings and HoF first boss are not that comparable afaik.

    Thanks for the useful tips. I will try to focus on my debuffs bit more, but melee movement and tacs just get bit in the way as I'm trying not to get killed by silly things and that could be probably the reason why I fail on the DPS side, but excuses, excuses, excuses. In general I need lot more of practice as DPS.

    I chose HotW, although I took it for the stat boost. But yes, keeping things simple for me is the best way to go, being melee and having to rely on your debuff on target is bit hard for me still.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 02:01 AM ----------

    What does this script you posted do dennis?
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


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