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  1. #21
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Because "why would she lie?" is a question asked pretty much all the time and Americans in general still feel women are virtuous wilting flowers who can do no wrong.

    Many women's groups are even trying to get proving rape cases dropped from "Beyond reasonable doubt" to "preponderance of evidence" which is usually used in grand juries to determine if there should be a trial in the first place.
    Annnd que even MORE reason for me to say the human race needs a quick kick in the shins. Seriously i get it it's a problem..Why not go deal with places like the congo first and THEN come back here and get women to REPORT more often instead of making it easier to convict.

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    A man went to jail for 9 years for no reason and you don't think that warrants punishment? You've got to just be fucking with me this time, Wells.
    It is possible to acknowledge the predicament of rape victims without being an extremist "Put all the menz in jail!". There's real discussion that is needed to solve this very big problem with our justice system, and pushing people to extremes doesn't further your agenda.

  3. #23
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    A man went to jail for 9 years for no reason and you don't think that warrants punishment? You've got to just be fucking with me this time, Wells.
    He said he can see their logic, he didn't say he agreed with it.

    Quite frankly I believe that in situations where it's proven that the accuser has falsified or even made the whole thing up and an innocent man is convicted on a lie, the law should come down heavily.

    That shouldn't put people off coming forward, conviction is made "beyond reasonable doubt" and the same would be said of accusing the victim of a misdemeanour. I was instantly reminded of the Brian Banks story. I completely support protection for victims of rape, but not at the cost of protecting victims of false accusation.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    That's what boggled my mind as well. So much for the justice system, and 'innocent until PROVEN guilty'. I'm seriously at a loss for words here, I simply can't believe that this freaking happened. And in my home state, too.
    I can...One reason i wish i had the power to overthrow the world current power structures LOL.

  5. #25
    Where do you think a 11 year old gets the idea to blame her father for raping her (when it is not true)? I would press criminal charges on the mother, not the daughter, if she had a hand in it. I've been through the whole parents getting divorced thing, and I can tell you they'd kill each other if they could get away with it legally, so it wouldn't surprise me if her mother coached her into lying.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't think that the problem of rape going unreported is very heavily related to fear of being punished for falsely accusing somebody of rape.
    Well fear of repercussions is a pretty common one. Fear of what will happen if charges aren't successful or if prosecution declines to charge is a pretty significant issue that law enforcement does need to address.
    Alright. This chick perpetrated a crime; albeit when she was a minor BUT a crime nonetheless.
    Shades of grey. I can see valid arguments for both sides. Plus I'm not sure what's to be gained from prosecuting someone for something they did 9 years ago when she was 11. Not to mention it will help perpetrate the myth of rampant false accusations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
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    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Well fear of repercussions is a pretty common one. Fear of what will happen if charges aren't successful or if prosecution declines to charge is a pretty significant issue that law enforcement does need to address.

    Shades of grey. I can see valid arguments for both sides. Plus I'm not sure what's to be gained from prosecuting someone for something they did 9 years ago when she was 11. Not to mention it will help perpetrate the myth of rampant false accusations.
    Valid on both points... but come on. A man spent 9 goddamn years in jail. That's not right, dude. It's just fucking not right at all. His career was halted for 9 years... chances are good he's stigmatized for life as a child-rapist (Because few people hear or care about the "acquitted" part)... if he recovers at all from this it'll take a LONG time. Whether or not false rape accusations are common doesn't enter into whether those that DO exist should be punishable or not.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Well fear of repercussions is a pretty common one. Fear of what will happen if charges aren't successful or if prosecution declines to charge is a pretty significant issue that law enforcement does need to address.
    Which isn't the same as a fear that you will be charged for false accusations.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  9. #29
    Oh course its not right. But she was 11. You can hardly hold an 11 year old to account for the things she does like you would an adult.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Which isn't the same as a fear that you will be charged for false accusations.
    Which is also a thing in my admittedly anecdotal experience. Women fear that if they can't prove their claims they'll get in trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lupii View Post
    It's a double-edged sword: If they make an example of her, they discourage the possibility of false rape charges to appear. However, it also runs the risk of victims fearing that if something happens that they go to the police and their rapist gets free, of being charged because of it.
    It's not a double edged sword. You don't let someone go unpunished because you think that it will hurt future cases. There are already women that are afraid to come out and say they are raped. That isn't going to change. Someone lost 9 years of their life. Would it be okay if her father kidnapped her for 9 years? No. Of course not. This is no different.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  11. #31
    This is such crap. Even if there is a lawsuit against the state and against his own daughter it doesn't change the fact that this guys name just got smashed through the dirt for 9 years, lost those 9 years of his life, of his child (which I wouldn't say is a bad thing considering what she did) and that he probably lost all of his friends / families respect that he had. Seriously, garbage. Shit needs to be CRYSTAL CLEAR that the person did it without a doubt. I don't care if the guy murdered 5900 people and flayed them while they were all alive.. If there's no evidence, we shouldn't be able to jail them.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    It's not a double edged sword. You don't let someone go unpunished because you think that it will hurt future cases. There are already women that are afraid to come out and say they are raped. That isn't going to change. Someone lost 9 years of their life. Would it be okay if her father kidnapped her for 9 years? No. Of course not. This is no different.
    Yes it is. Her father was an adult. She was not. We don't treat minors who commit crimes the same as adults and nor should we.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't think that the problem of rape going unreported is very heavily related to fear of being punished for falsely accusing somebody of rape.
    Well sort of. An issue that has come up a fair bit in my support groups in the past is the desire to make the legal system just stop, since the whole process is pretty overwhelming.

    However I agree that the correlation is probably overstated. I really don't think people who are debating whether to report are really thinking about recanting. Victims very often give up on the process, but I can't think of anyone who recanted.

    Well, I do know of a couple recants, but those were in long-term domestic violence type relationships, and that's a whole other can of worms...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Oh course its not right. But she was 11. You can hardly hold an 11 year old to account for the things she does like you would an adult.
    No, you can't do that but there are other cases where the woman was 16 at the time (still a minor but that line becomes grey. She could have been tried as an adult) where she never came forward and they had to pry the information out of her and she STILL refused to testify. Prosecutors would not press charges for this same reason.

    This particular case is a small part of a larger problem.

    Do you think such cases should go unpunished as well?

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    This is why rape convictions should require incontrovertible physical evidence or overwhelming multiple eye witness testimony for a conviction. The word of one person alone (or two people when the second is clearly capable of having an ulterior motive) should never be enough for a conviction alone.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
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  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You know if this discussion opens with a strawman I'm really not interested in talking about it with you.
    You obviously don't know what a strawman is.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    No, you can't do that but there are other cases where the woman was 16 at the time (still a minor but that line becomes grey. She could have been tried as an adult) where she never came forward and they had to pry the information out of her and she STILL refused to testify.

    Do you think such cases should go unpunished as well?
    What do you want? Some magic line when someone is an adult? We have one of those. We routinely ignore it based in things like the skin color of the defendant and how angry we are at them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    This is why rape convictions should require incontrovertible physical evidence or overwhelming multiple eye witness testimony for a conviction. The word of one person alone (or two people when the second is clearly capable of having an ulterior motive) should never be enough for a conviction alone.
    I wonder if you've ever posted this in a thread about crime that wasn't about rape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Yes it is. Her father was an adult. She was not. We don't treat minors who commit crimes the same as adults and nor should we.
    Think again. There are minors that get tried as adults. She knew she was lying. She knew it was serious. And she knew her father was going to get punished. Oh, and she's 23 now? How about recanting when she was 18 if you want to play the minor card. 19,20,21,22? She didn't come clean until she couldn't take the guilt anymore. If you want to talk about her being a minor, then she could have given her father a few years more freedom when she all of the sudden realized at 18 that what she did was wrong. That would have been 5 years he wouldn't have had to suffer through.
    Last edited by Seezer; 2012-11-23 at 06:29 AM.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Yes it is. Her father was an adult. She was not. We don't treat minors who commit crimes the same as adults and nor should we.
    Actuallllly.....We do these days...Look up cases such as sexting(we now have child sex offenders) or kids who kill(even by accident) this isn't the world we grew up in anymore man. Deal with it...Also this is probably one of the most twisted thing someone can do to the point that i'd say death is too good of a punishment.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What do you want? Some magic line when someone is an adult? We have one of those. We routinely ignore it based in things like the skin color of the defendant and how angry we are at them.
    I'm asking you a question. Do you think false allegations of rape are different from other false allegations (Such as those for murder, robbery, arson etc) and, as such, we shouldn't punish the people who did it for fear of others coming forward?

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