Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Destruktion]

I'm pretty sure I'm still on the idea that 'men have the right to be a father even if they woman doesn't want it.'
Unless we've moved on and agreed that the man doesn't have the right to force the woman to carry a pregnancy to term on the bases he wants the child?

I don't know who is touting that idea, but I sure as hell am not.

[Laize]

I'm not talking abstinence only education. I'm pretty damn sure you said that even with BC, there is still situation that arise where the woman gets pregnant and the man is forced to support it.
The answer would be, "Don't have sex with that woman. Make sure that if you have sex, you two agree what should happen if the BC fails and pregnancy occurs."

And if she changes her mind and backs out on the plan? We're just fucked?

I'm not okay with that.

[DuckieMage]

What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

Again, unless I'm going crazy, I'm pretty sure there was a discussion that men should have the right to be a father. The idea was that if the woman doesn't want it, the man should have a say in whether she has the abortion, because he may want it.
And I'm pretty sure, we are currently talking about men not wanting to support an unwanted child that resulted from a relationship or sexual encounter.

I'm pretty fucking sure, I'm not going crazy.

[Wells]

I'm talking about post-conception.

Well too bad. The man has ways to prevent a child preconception. You have no inherent right to a post conception way to avoid having to care for a child unless your body is required to bear it.

Who said anything about malicious intentions? I'm referring to the dynamic nature of humanity in that positions can change in light of new information. It's in the same vein as women deciding they want to forego an abortion after seeing their child on the ultrasound monitor.

Sleep with a girl who has an IUD. You now have a 0% chance of having a child.

Biologically it's still your child, but legally and financially it's not.

No. You created it. Its yours. Whether you want to support it or not, its still yours and needs to be cared for.

...right. And we're asking for an opt-out from that responsibility.

Too bad. Your desire to not have to give a shit does not trump the needs of the child you created. The only way you get an out after conception is if its your uterus.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:25 AM ----------

No rights to fetuses. Men should simply have an analogous option to women. Obviously we can't do a coat-hanger and some bleach. But there are other legal remedies we can have made available.

Women get an out because you can't force them to surrender their bodies against their will. Do you have a uterus? Nope? Then better take counter measures to avoid getting there.

[starlord]

No rights to fetuses. Men should simply have an analogous option to women. Obviously we can't do a coat-hanger and some bleach. But there are other legal remedies we can have made available.

"analogous according to me", you mean.

but really, tell us why men have rights to fetuses. they want the analogous option to give them up, correct?

[Grizzly Willy]

And if she changes her mind and backs out on the plan? We're just fucked?

I'm not okay with that.

Written contract. Lawyers in the room when the event occurs. I thought I already went over this?

*joking*

[starlord]

Again, unless I'm going crazy, I'm pretty sure there was a discussion that men should have the right to be a father. The idea was that if the woman doesn't want it, the man should have a say in whether she has the abortion, because he may want it.
And I'm pretty sure, we are currently talking about men not wanting to support an unwanted child that resulted from a relationship or sexual encounter.

I'm pretty fucking sure, I'm not going crazy.

thats the sad part. they argue against their own arguments to suite whatever is being addressed.

[Destruktion]

Well too bad. The man has ways to prevent a child preconception. You have no inherent right to a post conception way to avoid having to care for a child unless your body is required to bear it.

"Too bad" lol. Well I'm not talking about preconception so go on then.
I have an inherent right as a human being to decide whether or not to reproduce, and that right does not end at the tip of my member.

Sleep with a girl who has an IUD. You now have a 0% chance of having a child.

I could just as easily go abstinent and notice no difference.

No. You created it. Its yours. Whether you want to support it or not, its still yours and needs to be cared for.

That is why this decision will be made very early on in the pregnancy, so the mother has the opportunity to decide whether or not she wants to raise the child on her own.

Too bad. Your desire to not have to give a shit does not trump the needs of the child you created. The only way you get an out after conception is if its your uterus.

Yes it does. The rights of a human being trump the rights of an unborn child.

[DuckieMage]

And if she changes her mind and backs out on the plan? We're just fucked?

I'm not okay with that.

What if the man says, "I'll support you through a pregnancy, lets have sex without protection."
And then decides he doesn't want her anymore and leaves.
Or tells her that he is ok with her having an abortion if pregnancy occurs and then says, "Nvm, I want it now."

I'm not ok with that.

[Laize]

Women get an out because you can't force them to surrender their bodies against their will. Do you have a uterus? Nope? Then better take counter measures to avoid getting there.

I still assert that I have no obligations to a child I never wanted. You only say I do because it's in the child's best interests. According to darenyon, though, killing it can also be in its best interests.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:31 AM ----------

What if the man says, "I'll support you through a pregnancy, lets have sex without protection."
And then decides he doesn't want her anymore and leaves.
Or tells her that he is ok with her having an abortion if pregnancy occurs and then says, "Nvm, I want it now."

I'm not ok with that.

That's exactly the problem. People are fickle and can change their minds.

[obdigore]

What if the man says, "I'll support you through a pregnancy, lets have sex without protection."
And then decides he doesn't want her anymore and leaves.
Or tells her that he is ok with her having an abortion if pregnancy occurs and then says, "Nvm, I want it now."

I'm not ok with that.

And the woman has legal recourse to have that man supplement her income with a portion of his. The man has no legal recourse if they agree not to have a child then she decides to. What part of this aren't you getting?

[starlord]

Yes it does. The rights of a human being trump the rights of an unborn child.

if its unborn it has no rights. and he has none to exercise on it. you cant opt out of what you dont have.

[Laize]

"analogous according to me", you mean.

but really, tell us why men have rights to fetuses. they want the analogous option to give them up, correct?

Analogous does not mean directly parallel to.

[Wells]

I could just as easily go abstinent and notice no difference.

What? Do you know what an IUD is? Its statistically flawless birth control. Sleep with a girl who has one. You're not getting laid while actively making sure you haven't going have a child.

That is why this decision will be made very early on in the pregnancy, so the mother has the opportunity to decide whether or not she wants to raise the child on her own.

Which again, is more power than the woman has.

She either gets to absolve all burden or share it.

The man either gets to absolve his burden or share it.

So the guy decides to walk away.

He's now changed the woman's options to "abort or bear the entire burden"

That's why people are saying this gives more power to men than women have. Its not ok.

Yes it does. The rights of a human being trump the rights of an unborn child.

Good thing I'm not saying you have to pay to support a fetus. Once the child is born it needs care. Its need for care trumps your desire to not care for it.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:34 AM ----------

I still assert that I have no obligations to a child I never wanted.

No, you just assert you have the right to walk away from burdens you understood were the possible result of decisions you made.

That's exactly the problem. People are fickle and can change their minds.

If only there was some sort of perfect birth control....

[Laize]

No, you just assert you have the right to walk away from burdens you understood were the possible result of decisions you made.

You know what? Sure. Let's go with that since you're so insistent. I want the option to walk away from the possible result of a decision I made to have sex. Not because I'm a bad person but because I have no desire to be a father and don't believe my obligations should be dictated to me by a woman whose goals are antithetical to mine.

[DuckieMage]

That's exactly the problem. People are fickle and can change their minds.

And thus, why you can't take away mandatory child support, even if you don't want the child.
Because most the the time, men don't want it and doesn't want the responsibility of taking care of what his sperm made.

In a perfect world, none of this would happen.
Yes, to you and others, this system may seem archaic and an 'infringement on my rights', but there isn't anything out there that will make it work for both parties.
Welfare is so pathetic, it would never be enough to help a [now] single woman who must raise the child on her own. Even with her working 2-3 jobs, they often won't make ends meet.
Child support eases the pressure and it makes alot more sense than throwing the woman to the wind and telling her to 'fix your own problems, I don't want them'.

[starlord]

Analogous does not mean directly parallel to.

what analogous rights does he have to give up in an analogous manner?

[DuckieMage]

You know what? Sure. Let's go with that since you're so insistent. I want the option to walk away from the possible result of a decision I made to have sex. Not because I'm a bad person but because I have no desire to be a father and don't believe my obligations should be dictated to me by a woman whose goals are antithetical to mine.

I want the option to have sex without worry about pregnancy.

We both have things we want, but the world doesn't work like that.

You could get sterilized and never have to worry about having children....

[obdigore]

I want the option to have sex without worry about pregnancy.

We both have things we want, but the world doesn't work like that.

You could get sterilized and never have to worry about having children....

Actually male sterilization has a chance of not taking. Just like the pill has a chance of not working.

[Wells]

You know what? Sure. Let's go with that since you're so insistent. I want the option to walk away from the possible result of a decision I made to have sex. Not because I'm a bad person but because I have no desire to be a father and don't believe my obligations should be dictated to me by a woman whose goals are antithetical to mine.

No, its because, as you've already made clear, you don't give a flying fuck about a child you created if you don't feel like it and don't feel like you should be held responsible for the well being a full human being you created.

Its incredibly selfish and a fantastic reason your movement is a joke.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:41 AM ----------

Actually male sterilization has a chance of not taking. Just like the pill has a chance of not working.

Well vasectomies have a 1:2,000 change of failure, but that also goes down over time.

There are flawless ways to sterilize.