Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Northern Goblin]

and what safety net do you propose to make up for the lack of the current system?

Safety net in what circumstance, unable to contact the father till after first trimester? Unknown pregnancies going to 8+ months?

[Wells]

But having her trust that he would actually want to be a father is out of the question? Because it is sounding a lot to me that when women have to deal with options men currently they have, suddenly it's unacceptable.

I can't parse this.

[Laize]

Well that or trusting your sex partner. And yes. Those are your options. Then again I've managed to be sexually active for many years now and not had to result in any of those and doing just fine. Even talked with my partner about abortion prior to sleeping with her. So I know I won't be burdened with a child.

I don't really buy the argument that "women get to have an abortion but all my options are too haaard"

You of all people should be well aware that not everyone is so lucky.

[buck008]

Excuse me but you continue to ignore the fact that the man isn't "dumping responsibility on the woman".

She's making a conscious decision to carry the child to term. It's her choice. You don't get to make someone else responsible for your choices.

Here's what I don't get about you. You say that we're all responsible for our own choices. That you don't want someone else's choices to affect you. But you are totally oblivious to how your choices affect someone else. Your justification earlier was (paraphrasing) I don't want my life determined by someone else's choice. But you have no problem at all with doing that to someone else. Then you say it's their choice, their problem, when you took away one of their options because it was more convenient for you. You don't live in a vacuum. What you do effects other people whether you want it to or not. I just don't understand how you can't see that your solution isn't a solution. It just replaces a shitty situation for you with a shitty situation for her. And that is somehow ok.

[Wells]

You of all people should be well aware that not everyone is so lucky.

"Only sleep with people you trust" is not exactly a burdensome standard. I've already said that if a man can prove the woman deceived him I'm fine with a court voiding his responsibility.

[Rukentuts]

I can't parse this.

Good, because I cannot parse how you think that consequences argument doesn't fall flat on its ass. It's a shitty argument and everyone fucking knows it.

[Northern Goblin]

Modern science does amazing things.

It also has the chance to go wrong and be non-reversible.

107 pages is a little late to jump in.

I've read the whole damn thing since you got off the subject of circumcision. You're repeating the same thing like a stuck record despite arguments of the contrary.

I don't care if the options for 100% aversion to pregnancy suck, that's irrelevant. There are options. You make choices. Its not like an abortion isn't absolutely horrid.

Trying to bring an unwanted child into the world is hardly a bed of roses either. But abortion is purely the woman's choice to make, that isn't the discussion however.

[Rukentuts]

"Only sleep with people you trust" is not exactly a burdensome standard.

Apparently only for one gender, however.

[Laize]

That's exactly what the man is doing when he walks. He's taking the responsibility for his choices and telling the woman they're all hers now.

Not true at all.

She was granted the option to not be a mother during gestation. She didn't take it. The responsibility for that child existing rests squarely on her shoulders.

Again, you've removed the man from the equation in the decision to carry the pregnancy to term. You don't get to turn around and demand he pay for your decision to keep it against his wishes.

[starlord]

Safety net in what circumstance, unable to contact the father till after first trimester? Unknown pregnancies going to 8+ months?

im sure those details could be worked out, im more referring to the oh so dreaded child support.

[Aalyy]

I'm not denying how things are.

I'm saying how they should be.

There should be a way for men who aren't ready to be fathers to (holy shit) not be forced to be fathers.

Then your entire argument stems from frustrations that you cannot control a woman's decisions regarding her pregnancy. Regarding children as a consequence of sex both men and women are equally responsible under the law. Like so many have pointed out, both people chose to have sex (in most cases of conception) so, disregarding the sanctity of a woman's right to control her own body, once the child is here both parents are responsible for it. If two people have sex and it results in a child they are both equally responsible for it under the law. Child meaning a human who is born not a fetus that is part of a woman's body.

[Wells]

Good, because I cannot parse how you think that consequences argument doesn't fall flat on its ass. It's a shitty argument and everyone fucking knows it.

So you're not going to clarify?

It also has the chance to go wrong and be non-reversible.

I was talking about artificial insemination.

I've read the whole damn thing since you got off the subject of circumcision. You're repeating the same thing like a stuck record despite arguments of the contrary.

Whatever you say.

Trying to bring an unwanted child into the world is hardly a bed of roses either. But abortion is purely the woman's choice to make, that isn't the discussion however.

Pointing out how terrible abortion is is perfectly relevant when Laize acts like a vasectomy is the end of the world.

[GreatOak]

Is this crapfest of white knights and misogynists still going on? Ah well, carry on.

[starlord]

Apparently only for one gender, however.

i think we both know a woman planning & intentionally decieving a man is a little different from a possible kneejerk reaction to an unexpected situation.

[crakerjack]

Pft... From what I can tell... these "problems" that women seem to refer to when they say women have it bad, are flat out idiotic. When I read feminist stuff anywhere, it's always highly biased and seems as if it was written by a lesbian. I only care about equality in america, so scratch all the other countries.

The most rubbish, arrogant comment that I still see, is feminist complaining about how our government is mainly men. It makes me laugh because the people... both men and women, vote for who they want. So when I hear some feminist crying about how there aren't any women presidents, I think to myself about how arrogant they are to perceive that men or some outside force is responsible for why a woman isn't president. Considering majority of america's population is women... why is it that there isn't a women president? Because neither women nor men have voted one in.

[Rukentuts]

So you're not going to clarify?

It's hard to clarify when I make the exact same shitty argument back to you and you cannot "parse it".

[Northern Goblin]

That's exactly what the man is doing when he walks. He's taking the responsibility for his choices and telling the woman they're all hers now.

Or he's analysing the situation and saying "This is what I'm doing, you're free to do what you want from here on out, but just so you know I'm not being involved in it."

What's the downside? She could decide she doesn't want the child and has multiple options available to her so she doesn't raise it, or she chooses (yes she makes the choice fully aware) that she's raising it alone.

[Wells]

Apparently only for one gender, however.

I eagerly await Fengore jumping on you for repeating yourself despite all arguments to the contrary.

She was granted the option to not be a mother during gestation. She didn't take it. The responsibility for that child existing rests squarely on her shoulders.

Responsibility is not first created after conception. The man made decisions that directly led to pregnancy. He bears responsibility for the result of that decision.

Again, you've removed the man from the equation in the decision to carry the pregnancy to term. You don't get to turn around and demand he pay for your decision to keep it against his wishes.

And you keep acting like he was just wandering around minding his own business when he tripped and stumbled into a vagina.

Or that his desire to not take care of his own child trumps the childs need to be taken care of.

[Laize]

Then your entire argument stems from frustrations that you cannot control a woman's decisions regarding her pregnancy. Regarding children as a consequence of sex both men and women are equally responsible under the law. Like so many have pointed out, both people chose to have sex (in most cases of conception) so, disregarding the sanctity of a woman's right to control her own body, once the child is here both parents are responsible for it. If two people have sex and it results in a child they are both equally responsible for it under the law. Child meaning a human who is born not a fetus that is part of a woman's body.

I'm saying you can't leave a man out of the decision whether to continue a pregnancy and then say he's responsible because you decided not to abort.

[derpkitteh]

you men have had your seat since about... forever. i think you'd do alright to get the short end of the stick for a while. ;P

in all seriousness.... i'm more for human rights, than men and women's rights. i say we should work more on that than focusing on differences.