What do you know about Romania?

[Bakis]

Maybe they can take an inspiration from some countries that used to be full of fishermen 100 years ago. What future are you talking about?

It is a huge problem that western countries can offer the well educated people from other parts of Europe a better life.
Naturally it slows down their own countries progression, question is how do we fix it.
We got open borders within EU, people are free by law to move and work wherever they choose.
I really dont have an answer for it but I'm getting as fed up at the few people in western Europe being criminals and abusing other peoples poverty as a am on the few people blaming western Europe for their own countries being worse off.

[Cybran]

So we are talking about jobs and you bring up trafficking (as always)?
You are amusing mr Cybran.
You are always trying to derail into something else, I will give you the honor of at least being consistant.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...use-in-germany

In the documentary, aired last week on the public ARD network, employees from Eastern Europe and Spain said they had been recruited in their home countries for short-term jobs during the pre-Christmas season at an Amazon logistics center in Bad Hersfeld, about 100 miles northeast of Frankfurt.

The workers said they were informed shortly before going to Germany that they would be employed by a temporary-services agency, rather than by Amazon. Upon arrival, they said, they learned they would be paid only €8.52 ($11.37) per hour, compared to €9.69 promised earlier. They were housed in an overcrowded resort complex and bused daily to the Amazon facility. “The people are stuffed in little huts, seven of them, and fed in the cellar of the restaurant like pigs,” one of the bus drivers told an interviewer on the TV show. Like most of those interviewed, he did not give his name.

Workers don't get any better treatment.

[Themius]

Dragostea din tei is in romanian. I know that ;o

[Bakis]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...use-in-germany

Workers don't get any better treatment.

I'm sure some are not but in your perception of the world every single man and women that move to western Europe is abused, missused and probably become a sex slave, every single one of them.
Weird cos I've worked with quite a few myself and they weren't.

The sooner you can talk about something and not bring up the anomalies as the default condition the sooner we can start taking your posts seriously.

[ThisWillNotStand]

Way to make a new account and bump your own thread.

No Romanian would mention Ceausescu as a positive aspect of his country, he's the equivalent of Saddam Hussein, even though in his early days he was a good president, he later turned to genocide and Gestapo police tactics and starved the country to pay off national debt, after which he told them he'd starve them some more to pay some other debt, which incurred the revolution of 1989.

[Bakis]

No Romanian would mention Ceausescu as a positive aspect of his country, he's the equivalent of Saddam Hussein, even though in his early days he was a good president, he later turned to genocide and Gestapo police tactics and starved the country to pay off national debt, after which he told them he'd starve them some more to pay some other debt, which incurred the revolution of 1989.

I would like to visit his hybris palace tho, from what I understand it now house several federal agencies or maybe even the parlament?
Really convinced I need to actually visit it in order to comprehend how vast the building is.

[Deleted]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...use-in-germany

Workers don't get any better treatment.

Why do you hate Western Europe so much? You have made it very clear that you hate the UK especially.

[Cybran]

The sooner you can talk about something and not bring up the anomalies as the default condition the sooner we can start taking your posts seriously.

It's hard to see such instances as "anomalies" when there are hundreds of cases and hundreds of thousands of victims with no end is sight.

Why do you hate Western Europe so much? You have made it very clear that you hate the UK especially.

Since when is shedding light on cases of human trafficking and abuse "hating on countries"?

[Elegiac]

Why do you hate Western Europe so much? You have made it very clear that you hate the UK especially.

He's from Bulgaria. Apparently Western Europe has nothing better to do than interfere in its affairs and turn it back into what it was when the Soviets were still around.

[Deleted]

No Romanian would mention Ceausescu as a positive aspect of his country, he's the equivalent of Saddam Hussein, even though in his early days he was a good president, he later turned to genocide and Gestapo police tactics and starved the country to pay off national debt, after which he told them he'd starve them some more to pay some other debt, which incurred the revolution of 1989.

That's a symptom of the revolution only. The main symptom but not the one that started it. The revolution was started because of a small riot that happened in Timisoara because of a priest who was about to be evicted for disagreeing with the regime or something like that. Then the idiot dictator had the stupid idea to gather thousands of people in one place in Bucharest, where he spread his propaganda as always. While he was giving his "We will punish the hooligans" speech, someone either fired a weapon or blew up something near the crowd, which caused the thousands of people to go insane and boo at him. And from that point forward there was no turning back.

[Deleted]

It's hard to see such instances as "anomalies" when there are hundreds of cases and hundreds of thousands of victims with no end is sight.



Since when is shedding light on cases of human trafficking and abuse "hating on countries"?

One only needs to look back on the Falklands thread to see your hate.

[Bakis]

It's hard to see such instances as "anomalies" when there are hundreds of cases and hundreds of thousands of victims with no end is sight.

No no, dont change the goal post now. You specifically said western Europe only abuse people from central/east Europe that come to work, you then back it up with the laughable trafficking argument which is a criminal act and not job related.
When disproved you then post about one single company missbehaving and make the blanket statement again: Western Europe only abuse people from other countries.

Time to make up your mind, are everyone, a majority or a minority being abused?
Think carefully cos I will expect some proof regardless of what you answer and not your usual drivel about posting one example of a company and stating that it clearly prove every single person is being abused and cheated.

[ThisWillNotStand]

That's a symptom of the revolution only. The main symptom but not the one that started it. The revolution was started because of a small riot that happened in Timisoara because of a priest who was about to be evicted for disagreeing with the regime or something like that. Then the idiot dictator had the stupid idea to gather thousands of people in one place in Bucharest, where he spread his propaganda as always. While he was giving his "We will punish the hooligans" speech, someone either fired a weapon or blew up something near the crowd, which caused the thousands of people to go insane and boo at him. And from that point forward there was no turning back.

I was only 10 months old at the time details are hazy :P

[Cybran]

Time to make up your mind, are everyone, a majority or a minority being abused?
Think carefully cos I will expect some proof regardless of what you answer and not your usual drivel about posting one example of a company and stating that it clearly prove every single person is being abused and cheated.

http://euobserver.com/social/115659

The plight of posted workers widespread

The abuse of posted workers is widespread and is particularly concentrated in the construction sector. And while around 1 million known temporary workers are posted abroad, it is possible many more go undeclared.

Unscrupulous employers may exploit the vulnerabilities of posted workers by creating fictional or 'letter-box’ companies. A letter-box company has no genuine economic activity in the member state from which the posting actually takes place.

"Such companies cannot post workers under the posting of workers directive to other member states," the commission told this website.

Unlike migrant workers, posted workers are not fully integrated into the social security and labour obligations of the hosting country.

Posted workers may therefore find themselves stranded, without wages, and have limited recourse to sue or plead their case while stationed in the hosting country. This is especially true if the employer is a fictional company who then later simply disappears.

Compounded by language barriers and a lack of understanding of the complexities of cross-border labour and local laws, posted workers in difficultly may find themselves at an utter loss.

http://www.academia.edu/1522698/The_..._Domestic_Work

About a decade ago, most people in Europe would have assumed that extreme forms of labour exploitation, like slavery and forced labour, constituted a phenomenon confinedin the past. Working conditions at the end of the 20thand the beginning of the 21st century would appear as having little to do with such grave abuse. Human rights law scholars would similarly have assumed that explicit prohibition of conduct of this kindmight not be necessary in law, as it never occurs nowadays in practice. Protection fromslavery incorporated in human rights treaties might carry symbolic weight, but nopractical significance in present-day Europe.

They are too many and most of them are from the East.

[Bakis]

So I guess you dont stick to your old argument then, that western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/west Europe dry.

[Cybran]

So I guess you dont stick to your old argument then, that western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/west Europe dry.

That is exactly what is happening.

[Bakis]

That is exactly what is happening.

But you got no proof of it, all you got so far are invidvidual examples of how some companies misstreat them, giving them less pay etc.
If you are to make such a blanket statement and you cant even provide proof that it is the norm, then you are how do I put this..

probably and most likely wrong

edited for clarification

[Cybran]

But you got no proof of it, all you got so far are invidvidual examples of how some companies misstreat them, giving them less pay etc.
If you are to make such a blanket statement and you cant even provide proof that it is the norm, then you are how do I put this..

probably and most likely wrong

Hunderds of thousands of cases say; I am most likely right.

[Bakis]

Hunderds of thousands of cases say; I am most likely right.

There are two things you need to back up still.
* Ammount of workers from central/eastern Europe working in western Europe
* Ammount of workers that get abused out of those

So far, there is none, zero, nada proof from you in order for you to make the blanket statement that you keep repeating - "western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/eastern Europe dry".

[Cybran]

So far, there is none, zero, nada proof from you in order for you to make the blanket statement that you keep repeating - "western Europe only look to abuse foreign people and suck central/eastern Europe dry".

http://www.ituc-csi.org/romanian-wor...ed-and?lang=en

This month public opinion in Germany was shocked to hear about 50 subcontracted Romanian workers, hired since last December to build cottage houses for Bostalssee and, reportedly, hardly receiving any money at all, ending in situation when they were not even able to buy basic food. They said that “New Jobs” – the recruitment agency in Bucharest – was offering fixed employments and salaries. But when they arrived in Germany, it appeared that the work is on self-employment basis, which allowed the subcontractor to undercut sectoral minimum wage, pension contribution, holiday and sick pay, and even this money was not paid. Workers reported to have been sleeping in empty flats, with sheets of dryfall to sleep on. This continued for almost 4 months and only with vehement protests of workers the situation started to be adressed.

Finding cases of exploited Romanians is far too easy to be considered a "rare phenomenon".