AFF Mastery v Haste: Common Sense v Math

[Deleted]

well off the top of my head, expertise is the same as hit of spellcasters now and it fits into red sockets too afaik, and he prolly have a hit percentage that he didnt want to get under, so he had to socket some hit or expertise in this case, basically hit/mastery and exp/mastery is the same kind of gems, except hit/mastery goes into blue, and exp/mastery can go into red sockets but you're right zelol, it is a bit weird as it would prolly have been more optimal to gem differntly.

[Bonkura]

Obtaining the corruption breakpoint is gold on elegon or WoE. Besides that, on pure Single target fight (yeah you read "Blade Master" right) mastery is pure gold. All the point invested in haste to gain one corruption tick every 30s or so are wasted.

Edit : a bit extreme here, but my message is that Simcraft result must always be put in context.

This is wrong. Reaching a haste threshold gives you more than an extra tick. Not only do you cast faster but also you get longer duration on the dot so you'll spend less time casting that dot. Haste builds are not far behind mastery builds for a reason.

I understand that Mastery is.. easier as a stat and does not have thresholds like haste but what really makes me wonder is why are top locks gemming expertise and mastery?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erdisha/simple

For example?

Verdisha and other players in Paragon have always done questionable gearing when it comes to gems and stat priorities. You'll see this a lot in top end guilds. He's gemming expertise while still reforging out of hit when there's obiously way better stats to go for.

What needs to be understood is that these people are so good that a couple of hundred raid DPS is not gonna make it or break it for them when they get their world first kills. They are not godlike when it comes to theorycrafting but rather at executing everything they do in practice.

[Deleted]

Hey i've been having the same problem. I'd been following Method's advice and getting 4717 haste before I started to gem and reforge into mastery. However, I recently ran MrRobot and it gave me better results ignoring the extra tick from dots and reforging/gemming for mastery instead, leaving me at 3800~ haste. Was I wrong in doing this? I don't have access to my armory at the moment but my character is Zilrek - Daggerspine EU

[Bonkura]

I think all regular posters here should take a stance against all these people asking daily if they should go for master/haste and how much of each.

Seriously, all we (the regular posters) know have been posted in the threads here. If you simply want to know what we think you should go for then read said posts. If you're not convinced then well do it your own way or bring a good argument for why we would be wrong instead of "this guy/site says differently" because no one will have the power to try guess on a daily basis why these sites/people/softwares/spreadsheets think other methods are better.

[Deleted]

I just wanted some advice on the subject so I can perform better in raids...

[Deleted]

Hey i've been having the same problem. I'd been following Method's advice and getting 4717 haste before I started to gem and reforge into mastery. However, I recently ran MrRobot and it gave me better results ignoring the extra tick from dots and reforging/gemming for mastery instead, leaving me at 3800~ haste. Was I wrong in doing this? I don't have access to my armory at the moment but my character is Zilrek - Daggerspine EU

i wouldnt take mr robot too seriously as it only follows the set parameters set such as stat prios and once those are set, it will go after the maximum amount of those stats. if i were you i would run a simcraft on both builds and then i would decide which of the 2 i would prefer to use: the high mastery build or the haste break point build and then way in the pros and cons of both builds, maybe do a few lfrs to test them out in an actual raid.

[Jessicka]

I just wanted some advice on the subject so I can perform better in raids...

There are many individual threads on the subject, and it's also extensively discussed in the stickies at the top of the page; both the Affliction and more general 'fix my DPS thread'. The latter is probably actually far more useful than getting lost in the minute increments between reforging for Haste or Mastery will return.

[Orange Joe]

Simcrafts are mostly done with optimal gear or close to optimal gear.
You can't make a raw egg taste good (low geared character) without cooking it (gearing up).
At low gear level even pure intellect / other pure stats are fine to go with.

If you run somcraft right it's ran from YOUR gear you have on.

[Deleted]

So....it has been a boring day at work so i found this thread because i was wondering myself what the optimal haste value would be. Since Vanilla a always tried to get the best out of me gear, so i was rather desperate i couldnt figure out how much haste id need. Suddenly i was like "Heureka!!" because i had an idea nobody mentioned before.

So all i ask you for is to take 5minutes of your life and think about it this way:

How does haste affect Dots

-Corruption has a basic duration of 18sec (no haste at all)
-if you add more haste, the duration will be shortend to a certain value
-by adding even more haste, you will reach a new breakpoint( thus the duration will be increased to 18 + sec)

Let´s take the 4717 cap as an example:

-if you have 4716 haste, your corruptions duration will be < 18sec ( around 16,x sec i SUPPOSE)
- if you add 1 haste (sitting at 4717) your corruption would gain an extra tick (11th) and thus its duration must bei 18sec oder higher

-> so basicly you won 2sec duration of corruption by adding 1 point of haste

But what about the other Dots

By adding more and more haste in order to reach(gain) another hastecap, you WILL gain an extented duration for 1 Spell, BUT you will lose overall duration on the other 2 Dots

So basicly what i am Saying - rather then going for a certain hastecap, wouldnt it be more beneficial to aim for a hastevalue, at which all 3 dots have the highest COMBINED duration (should be doable with prober math)

Sry for my bad english, but i hope i could help you guys finding the right haste value for me ;P

[Rustjive]

So basicly what i am Saying - rather then going for a certain hastecap, wouldnt it be more beneficial to aim for a hastevalue, at which all 3 dots have the highest COMBINED duration (should be doable with prober math)

When you use the simcraft reforge plot, you are indirectly graphing this. Do you see why?
The value you are looking for is naturally one of the Haste breakpoints. Do you see why?
The value of the simcraft reforge plot is > than the value of finding the longest combined DoT duration. Do you understand why? Hint: Dark Soul matters.

[Deleted]

blah ... Do you see why?
blah2 .... Do you see why?
blah3. .. Do you understand why?
Hint: Dark Soul matters.

You totally got me 15 years back in time, looking at a white sheet of paper during some math exam :-)

He's gemming expertise while still reforging out of hit

Man, I can't get to write it down in proper english (i'm french), but the way i feel it is that once you know which target value/prio to aim for (aka the mathematical problem input) an optimal weighted algorithm will provide the best mathematical answer to these particular constraints, even if the results doesn't felle like it's sane.

Blattantly stupid mathematical example : let's you're 22 hit under the hitcap, and you have a piece that has 345 hit you can reforge out of, and a red slot somewhere. Put a red +160 exp gem, reforge out of hit to any other stat, will remove 345 * 0.4 = 138 hit from the slot, but combined with the gem you now have a total of +160-138=22, thus exaclty reaching the cap.

PS: please don't tell me that red should be int, and that int > hit i know it, as stated, it's just an example to show that reforging out of a stat somewhere and into that same stat somewhere else is often a valid mathematical solution to the given problem

[Deleted]

There are many individual threads on the subject, and it's also extensively discussed in the stickies at the top of the page; both the Affliction and more general 'fix my DPS thread'. The latter is probably actually far more useful than getting lost in the minute increments between reforging for Haste or Mastery will return.

I have looked at other sources of information, quite extensively actually but some are saying master > haste 4717 and others are saying the opposite, that's why I came here for advice

[Zelol]

You totally got me 15 years back in time, looking at a white sheet of paper during some math exam :-)



Man, I can't get to write it down in proper english (i'm french), but the way i feel it is that once you know which target value/prio to aim for (aka the mathematical problem input) an optimal weighted algorithm will provide the best mathematical answer to these particular constraints, even if the results doesn't felle like it's sane.

Blattantly stupid mathematical example : let's you're 22 hit under the hitcap, and you have a piece that has 345 hit you can reforge out of, and a red slot somewhere. Put a red +160 exp gem, reforge out of hit to any other stat, will remove 345 * 0.4 = 138 hit from the slot, but combined with the gem you now have a total of +160-138=22, thus exaclty reaching the cap.

PS: please don't tell me that red should be int, and that int > hit i know it, as stated, it's just an example to show that reforging out of a stat somewhere and into that same stat somewhere else is often a valid mathematical solution to the given problem

Now this is the first answer that makes sense when talking about why someone would gem like this when there are "better" ways.. but as they are the top of the top, this kind of min maxing is something that is perfectly well in their scope of stuff to do.. where i personally would say, cest la vie its 0.21% too much hit.. these quys go figure how to obtain the perfect amount and use that 0.21% to something useful.

[Rustjive]

Now this is the first answer that makes sense when talking about why someone would gem like this when there are "better" ways.. but as they are the top of the top, this kind of min maxing is something that is perfectly well in their scope of stuff to do.. where i personally would say, cest la vie its 0.21% too much hit.. these quys go figure how to obtain the perfect amount and use that 0.21% to something useful.

Not only top minmaxers can do this. Whenever you reforge using WoWReforge, you have the option of looking at your gems and trying something new. Essentially, you have the calculator calculate reforges for your current gear AND for a hit/haste cap that is 160, 320, 480, etc. more or less. You do this because you can 'get' hit or 'get' haste from gems 160 stat points at a time. Through just trial and error it's usually possible to get a perfect reforge.

Edit: Use my gear as an example - http://www.wowreforge.com/US/Destromath/Rvst

If I try to calculate reforges for 4760 Hit and 4717 Haste, I cannot get a perfect reforge (4767 Hit/4719 Haste the closest). However, I have Haste in nearly every gem. I can convert these to Mastery gems, 160 stats at a time. So then I try to reforge to 4877 Haste (closest is 4762 Hit/4877 Haste), try 5037 Haste (4760 Hit/5038 Haste), and then finally try 5197 Haste - which works perfectly. So I reforge based on that, and then swap out 480 stats worth of Haste for Mastery in my gems.

[Deleted]

cest la vie its 0.21% too much hit..

Besides, when i have the choice of being 0.20 below the cap or 0.38 above, i tend to choose the first one (being below the cap) so that all my precious secondary stat is indeed used. I know i might have some rng bad luck, and lose dmg due to a miss, but when i'm speaking of being hitcap, i personally mean being as near of 15% as i can without going above. That's why when reforgelite-ing i first set 5100 as hit cap, let it search a good estimate, see how much above i am, if it's lower than 5110 then ok, or then enter 5090 and re-do, if it finds a solution below 5100 then i validate and reforge. if not, i just set to 5080 then 5070 and so on. But there's more...

The second thing i do is take a look at the other stats, as you will see down below, it has its importance.

Example #1 : yesterday after my belt+legs upgrade it got me a nice 5084 hit solution, while beforehand (asking for 5100+) the best solution was 5176 (i was asking for 5100)... so i would have been wasting 76 stats, now i'm only 16 points shord of hitcap. The thing is, the 5084 solution was somewhere trading approx 300 mastery into crit when compared to the other solution, which at 5176 hit was providing 300 mastery at the expense of some haste and crit. I'm playing demo, and i decided that i'd give more personnal value to mastery, and chose the +76 solution instead of the -16 solution

Example #2 : a few weeks ago, i got an chestpiece, and did the same thing. That time, the first solution was something like 5050 hit, while the second was 5085 hit. But the first solution ("far" below hitcap) was providing me with about 200 more mastery than the second (just below the hitcap). So even though i would be risking miss (but very few), i decided that i would prefer to have more mastery, and i chose to run with the -50 solution instead of the -15 solution

See what i mean ?

TL;DR : imho hitcapping is more a question of being able to decide between all the different solutions (very above, above, very near, below, more below) you can get, and choose the one you prefer. Give a look at the global thing (not just hit) for each configuration, chose the one you prefer, but simply don't look at the detailed solution (aka the specific reforge for each slot) because well ... who cares. Besides, reforging in or out of some tens of stat won't make a world of a difference (haste set aside.)

[Ridcully]

-if you have 4716 haste, your corruptions duration will be < 18sec ( around 16,x sec i SUPPOSE)

It can't go under 17 seconds, when it gets to 17 - additional tick is added and duration becomes 19.

So basicly what i am Saying - rather then going for a certain hastecap, wouldnt it be more beneficial to aim for a hastevalue, at which all 3 dots have the highest COMBINED duration (should be doable with prober math)

Here (numbers are approximate, messed up something in formulas):
max combined durations, no raid buffs
However now I believe it is not worth doing that. Due to the nature of the dots, it will save a very small amount of gcd's per fight, if any.