Thread: Four quickbars

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    That was for preorders. There were about 8 (?) months where players paid at least 60 dollars to play swtor who are receiving nothing more than a 5 dollar status.
    I'm sure it's a disheartening experience, the game really did go to free very fast, and I feel awful for people who bought in early. Especially with as many who were excited for the game, and it as much as it was really talked up and all. I'm sorry, but still it seems rather silly to pay that much for a video game. I mean if you think about it, it's not unusual to see titles available on sale at Steam or somewhere a year or two later at a fraction of the price. Used games are everywhere like 2 months after release. Video games are hardly known for keeping their value, so it's not like this wasn't going to happen to some degree or anything.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahfireworks View Post
    Video games are hardly known for keeping their value, so it's not like this wasn't going to happen to some degree or anything.
    For sure, but in MMOs price reduction tends to coincide with expansion or significant time.
    And even when they do, they tend to offer something to veterans (and no, the party jawa does not cover this as you had to be subscribed post f2p announcement and have an active account on nov 15th.)
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    For sure, but in MMOs price reduction tends to coincide with expansion or significant time.
    And even when they do, they tend to offer something to veterans (and no, the party jawa does not cover this as you had to be subscribed post f2p announcement and have an active account on nov 15th.)
    They do seem really set on the "must be subscribed" thing for a lot of stuff. It would have been nice to see them do something more to entice people back to the game, even as just F2P players. With as many former players as there are you'd think they'd be trying harder to bring some of them back.

    Also sorry, but the party jawa is way too awesome to discount entirely.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahfireworks View Post

    Also sorry, but the party jawa is way too awesome to discount entirely.
    Just pointing out that the 8 month people don't necessarily get it. A reward for purchasing the 60 dollar box targeted at that group would probably gain EA some good will.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    The problem is that people take payment models into account when valuing a game.
    I happen to view swtors f2p model as viable but in need of a few changes. If someone views the model an not viable, they are probably not going to play the game.
    For example, Allods (spl?) has an amazingly ridiculous grind that boarders on abusive to f2p accounts. In my opinion, f2p should be either able to grind to play or pay to play but when the grind is too great it is used to bully people into subscribing. Some people think swtor does the same thing with its restrictions. I have never tried Allods after seeing its payment model. If I thought the same of swtor, I wouldn't try it.
    Its important to have a competitive model.
    That could all be true, I'm not going F2P with SWTOR and don't intend on dropping my sub anytime remotely soon.

    My thought pattern goes back to my Kindle Fire analogy. I realize that by paying nothing I am receiving an experience that (by someone) has been deemed as the "free" experience. Really, getting to play this $150mil+ game for free is a pretty damn good deal to start with, because for all of the little personal preference issues and things people have, it's a damn good game overall, especially to get to play it for free.

    If I'm a business trying to make money, I'm going to do everything I can to get people to pay me money. If that means making life tough for people getting it for free, while also showing them how much better it could be if they drop a few bucks, then that's the way to go. It's commercialism, and it's really OK. Because the truth is that the people who want the "premium" experience will pay the premium. The people who want the minimum (and possibly more difficult?) experience will either live with what they're getting for free or they will pay the premium.

    It's just business. If you're hungry, but don't have a ton of money, you will order the single and skip the cheese. If you want more, you order the triple with extra sauce and bacon.

    I totally understand your analogy. I just don't think it's fair to call it abuse. Getting something - let alone a freaking video game - for free can't really be described as abuse. That's a little ridiculous.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post

    I totally understand your analogy. I just don't think it's fair to call it abuse. Getting something - let alone a freaking video game - for free can't really be described as abuse. That's a little ridiculous.
    Logically, no. Receiving access to a video game for free is not abuse. But we are talking about "feelings". The response you see on these boards, in game, and the swtor.com boards against the restrictions. The sheer indignant rage. Is what is concerning. People feel that its abusive.
    Those feelings are what decide if people spend money or time playing swtor.
    Like I said, I don't think swtor's model is abusive. I have been defending it to the point where people think I work for EA. They wear tinfoil hats.
    But the fact that they do is important none the less... And unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a small group of people.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2012-11-28 at 07:34 PM.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    But it doesn't HAVE to be compared to all of those things.
    It does have to compete in the market though, and, given that market is not a vacuum in which only SWTOR exists, it should not be made as if the competition does not exist. If people see a better experience in terms of payment model elsewhere, but like the Star Wars universe, they have every right to bring it up, in fact they should. Especially if it manages to counteract the legion of people going, "But they have to make money" in response to every criticism of the current model, as if MMOs not using SWTOR's current F2P model are floundering/drowning.

  8. #48
    I don't think that's the argument at all.

    I think the argument is that it's FREE, and you don't have to play it, so there's little to no sense in bitching about it.

    You know what you get for free, and you know what you get if you pay. So you choose to play for free or you choose to play under a subscription. I'm not defending anything, not talking about how much they have to make money, etc. Just saying that you know very clearly up front what the limitations of f2p are, and by the fact that you are getting a very good SOMETHING for free, complaining about it is silly.

  9. #49
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    I totally understand your analogy. I just don't think it's fair to call it abuse. Getting something - let alone a freaking video game - for free can't really be described as abuse. That's a little ridiculous.
    This is totally where you are too old to understand like you stated earlier. Products and consumerism, especially video games, have evolved to be much more than a product with no involvement in your life.

    MMOs as a genre are a very intimate product given how closely the experience between the developer and the individual is. It's an outdated ideology to discuss video games as a product that has no affect on our livelihoods. People might not like that things have gone that way, but technology as a whole has been literally aiming for this comingling of life and their products.

    It is entirely valid to classify certain company behavior as 'abuse' of their customer base. The concept isn't new in that regard either. Think of how long people have been railing against the tobacco industry for the exact same thing. They know there are segments of the market they can target (due to addiction) that they can easily take advantage of. Similar ethical constructs are being transposed into things like game company interaction with their consumers for good reason.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    I think the argument is that it's FREE, and you don't have to play it, so there's little to no sense in bitching about it.
    I feel that the MMO market is competitive enough that I want them to keep bitching and get enough of what they want to stay. I think it would be better for swtor in the long run to get as many players as it can.

    edit: Keep in mind, bitching got the model from 1 action bar to 4 and 3 warzones to 5.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2012-11-28 at 07:41 PM.
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  11. #51
    I think the argument is that it's FREE, and you don't have to play it, so there's little to no sense in bitching about it.
    Yeah, you don't have to play it, there's another Star Wars MMO out there worth playi-oh right, there isn't. When it comes to MMOs, if your interest is Star Wars, this is the only game in town, and if you see things you dislike, you have every right to bring up the issues, and use existing, successful, models as examples of how things could be done better. With the, 'you don't have to play it' mindset, there wouldn't be a single playable F2P MMO out there, F2P MMO have feedback and changes all the time from their audience, and they should have such feedback. Get over it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    This is totally where you are too old to understand like you stated earlier. Products and consumerism, especially video games, have evolved to be much more than a product with no involvement in your life.
    Hey hey, I'm only 32. I got my NES when I was 5 and so on and so forth. I played WOW in beta, and N64, Unreal Tournament, and Quake Arena pretty much consumed my college life.

    I'm a ridiculously well-seasoned gamer, and although I'm now a professional with a family, I play a LOT and games are very much a product with tremendous involvement in my life. Just ask my wife...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I feel that the MMO market is competitive enough that I want them to keep bitching and get enough of what they want to stay. I think it would be better for swtor in the long run to get as many players as it can.

    edit: Keep in mind, bitching got the model from 1 action bar to 4 and 3 warzones to 5.
    Point taken.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple View Post
    Yeah, you don't have to play it, there's another Star Wars MMO out there worth playi-oh right, there isn't. When it comes to MMOs, if your interest is Star Wars, this is the only game in town, and if you see things you dislike, you have every right to bring up the issues, and use existing, successful, models as examples of how things could be done better. With the, 'you don't have to play it' mindset, there wouldn't be a single playable F2P MMO out there, F2P MMO have feedback and changes all the time from their audience, and they should have such feedback. Get over it.
    OK, whatever. I'm not trying to make it personal at all.

    Just saying it's free. What do you have to complain about if it's free? Subscribe... then complain. From the company's standpoint, they have nothing to lose if you hate the f2p model, because you're not paying anyways. It's when you sub and then quit that will get their attention (theoretically).

    I'm just saying that like... 99% of the complaints about the f2p system are all solved by subscribing, which is clearly EA's intent (abuse or not).

    If you want more quickbars, or feel that leveling is slow, or want more gear, or want to be able to do more FPs or WZs, or want to chat, or don't want to spend money on Cartel Coins but want the swag... the sub option is there.

    Basically, people are bitching about not getting the premium experience when they're not paying for a premium experience. And no, you don't have any justification for bitching about that, and you're not going to.

    I drive a Chevy Malibu because I can't afford an Aston Martin. I'm not calling Chevy and complaining that my car isn't an Aston Martin. I'm getting what I paid for.
    Last edited by Leadsop; 2012-11-28 at 07:53 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    Just saying it's free. What do you have to complain about if it's free? Subscribe... then complain. From the company's standpoint, they have nothing to lose if you hate the f2p model, because you're not paying anyways. It's when you sub and then quit that will get their attention (theoretically).

    I'm just saying that like... 99% of the complaints about the f2p system are all solved by subscribing, which is clearly EA's intent (abuse or not).
    BioWare absolutely has a LOT to lose if people hate the F2P model. I'm personally not spending money in the cash shop because I hate the model they are using, but if it were to be a less restrictive model, would have no problems dropping cash. I'm sure there are others like me. Having a bad F2P model can completely turn off potential paying players.

    So yeah, they do have a lot to lose if players hate the F2P model.

    And again, the "sub or shut up" argument doesn't fly. The game clearly hasn't been worth the sub for most people so far, so they needed to find other ways to get people playing and paying. They haven't really changed what the subscription provides, so there's not all that much of an incentive to come back and subscribe beyond checking out a bit of the new content for a month. Them trying to force people back into the subscription model that people clearly didn't like to begin with is pretty foolish.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    Basically, people are bitching about not getting the premium experience when they're not paying for a premium experience.
    I don't mean to throw fuel on your fire. But many of the complaints are actually worse than that. I think I would phrase it as:
    "People are bitching about having to either grind or pay for near premium experience" (Can't call it premium till they include ranked and hm/nmm)

    That said, I encourage their bitching because they vocalize what many who are not active on forums are probably thinking when picking their MMO of choice.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 08:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Them trying to force people back into the subscription model that people clearly didn't like to begin with is pretty foolish.
    I agree with this... A lot.

    They need to complete their f2p model by adding ranked wz authorization and hm/nmm operations authorization.
    I say authorization because I would imagine it as an unlock that would essentially upgrade your weekly passes.
    That and advanced artifact authorization.

    *Note that I am not asking these things to be free. On the contrary, I am suggesting that they cost cartel coins or be sold on the GTN.
    F2P needs to be another way to play Swtor, in its entirety, where you pick and choose what you want. Where as subscription would be a "full access pass" which would be essentially a discount compared to trying to buy access to everything as a F2P account.

    Trying to shove people into a subscription when they already made it clear that they don't like subscriptions isn't a good idea.
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  15. #55
    The Patient Saitan's Avatar
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    The problem with your kindle analogy is that it's not accurate.

    F2P don't get the basic experience with optional extras to buy. They get a reduced and cripled experience with the option to pay for the basic experience.

    Subscribers get the basic experience but they have to pay for it and soon they have to pay for the updates too.


    It should be that F2P get the basic experience and get the option to pay for extra content and updates if they want and that subscribers who pay monthly get an enhanced experience and the updates for free and even getting rewarded with CC to buy vanity stuff for free that F2P have to pay for.

    It should be that F2P gets the oppertunity to enjoy the game and feel that this is something they really enjoy and don't mind spending some money on occasionally and perhaps even subscribing because they feel that they're spending so much time in the game that it's worth it and the extra stuff you get as a subscriber looks really interesting.

    Instead we have a system that criples the basic experience with restrictions and reductions on everything you encounter from the very moment you create a character with reminders that you could have it better if you pay for it.
    EA is showing you that this is what you could experience but you can't because if you want it you have to pay and if you don't feel it's worth it then fuck off.

    How is that system going to attract more players?

    If anything the subscribers should be the ones complaining the most since all they get is the very basic experience without anything extra except some free CC each month.

    To use your Kindle analogy:
    -F2P gets the Kindle but all we can do is turn it on and watch the starting screen and nothing else unless we pay for it.
    -Subscribers gets the Kindle and can use it for it's very basic functionality and there are no extra stuff like Amazon Prime (though you do get rid of the adds(restriction reminders))

    And you're saying it's fine and F2P shouldn't complain because they get the Kindle for free. What good is a Kindle that only shows the starting screen?


    Also I'm not saying F2P should get everything for free. There's nothing wrong with restrictions like races etc but there is a limit to how many restrictions you can have and EA crossed that line and just continued towards the horizon.

    I also think the Legacy system could have been made into a subscriber feature. It's nothing game breaking but it adds lots of fun and enjoyment to the game and even some gameplay bonus from having all class buffs etc.
    Last edited by Saitan; 2012-11-28 at 08:59 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Saitan View Post
    To use your Kindle analogy:
    -F2P gets the Kindle but all we can do is turn it on and watch the starting screen and nothing else unless we pay for it.
    -Subscribers gets the Kindle and can use it for it's very basic functionality and there are no extra stuff like Amazon Prime (though you do get rid of the adds(restriction reminders))

    And you're saying it's fine and F2P shouldn't complain because they get the Kindle for free. What good is a Kindle that only shows the starting screen?
    You said my analogy isn't accurate (except it's 100% accurate), and then you make this one?

    Are you nuts?

    Are you insinuating that under the f2p system that you log in and only see the starting screen?

    I just don't understand.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    Are you insinuating that under the f2p system that you log in and only see the starting screen?

    I just don't understand.
    A lot of people feel that way. Which is a shame because as preferred you can access everything up to hardmode/nightmare operations and ranked WZs. Without spending money.

    Without spending money.

    Without spending money.

    Without spending money.

    Even if an unlock isn't on the GTN there is always trade chat.
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    Lv40 (Firefall) - Dragonfly - Biotech - Mammoth - Arsenal - Nighthawk - Raptor - Recon - Tigerclaw - Electron -
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    I'm just saying that like... 99% of the complaints about the f2p system are all solved by subscribing, which is clearly EA's intent (abuse or not).
    If the game could stand on its Subscription model alone, we wouldn't be here at all, so, that settles that. Forcing the sub model, by crippling and restricting free players, a sub model that the majority of people who bought SWTOR dropped, just doesn't seem like the hand to play. Again, if it could stand on that, we wouldn't be here.

    But hey, if the free players should pay, or get out, and they choose to get out, well.. I'm curious what the population of the game would look like after a year.
    Last edited by Purple; 2012-11-29 at 09:55 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple View Post
    If the game could stand on its Subscription model alone, we wouldn't be here at all, so, that settles that. Forcing the sub model, by crippling and restricting free players, a sub model that the majority of people who bought SWTOR dropped, just doesn't seem like the hand to play. Again, if it could stand on that, we wouldn't be here.

    But hey, if the free players should pay, or get out, and they choose to get out, well.. I'm curious what the population of the game would look like after a year.
    This may be (and probably is) all true.

    I'm not discussing the merits of the f2p system at all. I have my own thoughts about that and whether it works or not.

    I'm merely discussing the implications/value of complaining about not receiving the subscription perks when people are not subscribed.

    OT: Ultimately, I want the game to succeed just as we all do. I think the f2p system works fairly well. I have quite a few friends who came in under f2p and who are now subscribed. I would make a few changes based on my past gaming experiences, but for the most part I think it's doing its job. There are certainly a ton more people playing. Like everyone else, I wish it were free to play everything, but I have paid for MMOs since WOW's launch and also just got my 10-year XBOX Live subscriber reward, so I'm ok with paying for things I like to do. I don't understand why people feel like they should get all of the benefits of a subscription for free. Does not compute. I wish there was a hell of a lot more Star Wars in this Star Wars game. To me it feels a lot more like SpaceWOW than Star Wars, but I love Star Wars (the franchise) so I quit WOW and am hooked on this game.

    There are certainly things I would change about this game, but for my money, and for as much as I enjoy it, I choose to accept those things as they are and keep going because ultimately I'm having fun and for as much bitching about how "game-breaking" the shitty SWTOR GTN is, there's nothing in SWTOR that is "game-breaking." This term is stupid and gets thrown around way too much when people just don't like something. If you want "game-breaking" play Superman64.
    Last edited by Leadsop; 2012-11-30 at 12:33 PM.

  20. #60
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadsop View Post
    If you want "game-breaking" play Superman64.
    I almost read Super Mario 64 and I was about to unleash the furies of seven hells on you because of how awesome that game was.

    Then I realized you said Superman and I concur.

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