Man Kills Two Teens Robbers

[Adam Jensen]

Some of the posters here scare me.

You honestly think its okay to shoot someone, AFTER they've been neutralized, just because they broke into your house?

Once they're neutralized, call the police and let the justice system handle it. Self defense ends the moment you are no longer in danger. If you shoot someone after that moment has passed, you've committed murder.

[Decagon]

Being deaf meaning its even harder to tell if there were more intruders upstairs or not.

Struggling to move a slick with blood body in the dark, a body that might be fighting back, afraid the door will open and other intruders will see you, no way to tell if she has a gun hidden in one of a dozen pockets, the smell. Unless he did time in the trenches he was probably sick and half mad with fear at that point.

Ah, so really we can't determine either way if he was justified in his thinking that he was still in danger or not until more information is known.

[Learj]

Are you serious? Call the hospital? Really? I have a family member that was stabbed over 20 times. It's amazing he survived! Guess what he had a gun and didn't want to use it! That criminal is still on the lose and has possibly killed many people since then. Ask him now and his words are BANG YOUR DEAD!

[Themius]

I don't know how this is supposed to work.

Shoot the kid dead = oh it's self defence
shoot the kid dead, then shoot him again = SECOND-DEGREE MURDER

The teenagers (18 and 17, hardly children) were robbing him, I'm siding with him on this one.

Shoots kid down, shoots them, gun jams, gets another gun, shoots them in the head when they are completely defenseless and incapacitated. Shows no remorse, and takes relish in his kill.

You realize that once someone isn't a threat that you need to defend against that your whole self defense claim goes out the window right?

[Kasierith]

Ethics is a standard course at almost all medical schools as far as I know. So technically physicians are professionally trained in ethics. However, as far as the AMA is concerned I doubt they'd be for the idea of euthanasia. I haven't looked it up, but I know some organizations have threatened removal of licenses for physicians that declared death row inmates dead. It's a slightly different issue, but I just don't see it being an openly supported issue by medical organizations.

It is a standard course, yes. But having gone through said courses, they are meant to give a baseline knowledge of professional ethics and no more. A single course or maybe two in professional ethics does not grant the expertise needed to fully understand the complex problem that is euthanasia, to the point of being a professional in that field. Its equitable to saying that because a philosophy student had to take intro to biology, he is granted the knowledge needed to help perform surgeries by said class. Euthanasia is an immensely complicated and multifaceted ethical issue, and is in a sense analogous to said surgery in the knowledge and expertise that should be required for it.

[SirRobin]

Oh, well in lieu of the new facts, I'm not so sure I'm so adamant in my belief that he shouldn't be charged with murder anymore. What relevance is there to the deafness?

Spent eight years in the U.S. Army and a number of those as an armorer. Had a couple of instances where soldiers were convinced the weapon they were returning was unloaded and I showed it wasn't. By firing it, in an enclosed space. Very very loud.

While I routinely hold your posts in very high esteem, in this situation you are letting theoretical mechanisms influence your opinion. You do not currently have a basis for such assumptions aside from speculation.

Well thank you for the compliment but theorizing is what we have to work with most right now. There are way to many unanswered questions here. Not to mention that its hardly a lot of assuming. You shoot a body? Blood comes out. A young adult body that isn't dead. A 64 year old man, not the spryest looking fellow in the picture, trying to move said body with possibly bulky clothes and blood coming out of it. Not the easiest thing to do in a dark basement. Or do you think he actually would have kept the lights on?

[Decagon]

Shoots kid down, shoots them, gun jams, gets another gun, shoots them in the head when they are completely defenseless and incapacitated. Shows no remorse, and takes relish in his kill.

You realize that once someone isn't a threat that you need to defend against that your whole self defense claim goes out the window right?

To be fair, it was mentioned in the new reports linked above that he had the gun on his hip, it's not like it took him more than a few seconds to be ready to use it.

[vaeevictiss]

Spent eight years in the U.S. Army and a number of those as an armorer. Had a couple of instances where soldiers were convinced the weapon they were returning was unloaded and I showed it wasn't. By firing it, in an enclosed space. Very very loud.

hopefully it was into a bullet can because if not what you did was just as irresponsible as what they did. You don't do something that could potentially damage someones hearing permanently to teach them a lesson.


other than that, for a video game forum, these gun threads sure get heated lol. 132 pages in a day...wtf lol. What odd is there are only a few of us pro gun guys here arguing with a liege of antis.

[Lumocolor]

You guys are ignoring the facts that once someone breaks in to your home on a Monday night they have proven both capable, willing and able to do it on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday night.

The only way to guarantee they won't return is to eliminate the threat.

It may be a little dark and heavy for some of you but it's the truth.

I agree. And i guess that is a warning to not break into my place because one of us isn't walking out.

[SirRobin]

Ah, so really we can't determine either way if he was justified in his thinking that he was still in danger or not until more information is known.

Yep, Morrison County is in the middle of Minnesota. The high on the 22nd was 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Hardly balmy. So thick clothing like coats, with lots of pockets? Reasonable expectation. Lots of pockets equals lots of places to hide a weapon. In a dark basement. Afraid you are going to die. Pretty much completely deaf at this point so unable to tell if more intruders are about to come charging downstairs guns blazing.

[Decagon]

hopefully it was into a bullet can because if not what you did was just as irresponsible as what they did. You don't do something that could potentially damage someones hearing permanently to teach them a lesson.


other than that, for a video game forum, these gun threads sure get heated lol. 132 pages in a day...wtf lol. What odd is there are only a few of us pro gun guys here arguing with a liege of antis.

Personally, I don't view this thread as gun rights vs no gun rights.

And yeah, this forum has a pretty active base on GenOT and Fun Stuff, for a lot of us, we actually have long lasting friends that we frequently talk to over these forums, it's not your average forum.

[Kasierith]

Well thank you for the compliment but theorizing is what we have to work with most right now. There are way to many unanswered questions here. Not to mention that its hardly a lot of assuming. You shoot a body? Blood comes out. A young adult body that isn't dead. A 64 year old man, not the spryest looking fellow in the picture, trying to move said body with possibly bulky clothes and blood coming out of it. Not the easiest thing to do in a dark basement. Or do you think he actually would have kept the lights on?

Given the lack of evidence on quite a few things, the most stringent choice would be to limit our speculation based on what we do know, rther than what we do not know. There are a number of things I could hypothesize about it that could be drastically against his favor (for example, I doubt very, very, very much that after being shot with a .22 rifle she actually laughed at him, especially after he just shot the boy. If he lied about that, what else did he lie about?), but I would rather restrain myself from doing so, and do what I would do were I to be on the jury and speculate based only on the knowledge before me.

[SirRobin]

hopefully it was into a bullet can because if not what you did was just as irresponsible as what they did. You don't do something that could potentially damage someones hearing permanently to teach them a lesson.

Hehe... Well I was a little crazy back then... But I'm feeling much better now.

After the first few rounds? The captain and first sergeant didn't even bother coming downstairs anymore.

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 10:55 PM ----------

Given the lack of evidence on quite a few things, the most stringent choice would be to limit our speculation based on what we do know, whether than what we do not know. There are a number of things I could hypothesize about it that could be drastically against his favor (for example, I doubt very, very, very much that after being shot with a .22 rifle she actually laughed at him, especially after he just shot the boy. If he lied about that, what else did he lie about?), but I would rather restrain myself from doing so, and do what I would do were I to be on the jury and speculate based only on the knowledge before me.

Oh I'm not claiming it was a real laugh. Then again, depending on what she was on and where he actually hit her? Yeah, laughter is possible. Think of how mad that would make him too. Here you are hiding in your basement. You're pretty sure you just killed someone and here comes another one that you shoot and what do they do? Laugh at you? You think you might die and this girl is laughing at you? Fear, anger, adrenaline, lord knows what medications he is on. Oh yeah, I could see him thinking she laughed. Even if it was just her choking on blood while trying to keep breathing.

[Decagon]

Psh, we all start agreeing and being polite and suddenly the thread gets boring.

[obdigore]

Oh I'm not claiming it was a real laugh. Then again, depending on what she was on and where he actually hit her? Yeah, laughter is possible. Think of how mad that would make him too. Here you are hiding in your basement. You're pretty sure you just killed someone and here comes another one that you shoot and what do they do? Laugh at you? You think you might die and this girl is laughing at you? Fear, anger, adrenaline, lord knows what medications he is on. Oh yeah, I could see him thinking she laughed. Even if it was just her choking on blood while trying to keep breathing.

Ok. So you just killed someone. You feel terrible for it but feel like you were defending your property. One in his leg or chest, he fell down the stairs, made a threatening move to his jacket, you shoot him in the head. Certainly that can be construed as self defense.

Minutes later the girl comes in, starts walking down the stairs. You shoot her in the leg/chest, she falls down. You point the rifle at her head/chest, it jams. You think she laughs (chokes on blood, farts, whatever), you then fire multiple pistol rounds into her torso. The first part is self defense, the second part is arguable.

You then feel safe enough to drag her into your workshop, nuzzle your pistol up under her chin, and end her life. That is clearly an execution and not self defense. Second Degree Murder is the correct charge.

[Lumocolor]

Who says anything about not expecting consequences? If you have to shoot someone to defend your home, that's fine. Robbers deserve to be punished and homeowners deserve to defend themselves. But that punishment MUST go through the court of law and the justice system and self defense does not mean executing the criminal AFTER they've been neutralized.

Tell that to the 477 people who've been executed in texas, they were neutralized and safely behind bars...lol.

The justice system sucks and i'd rather be sure they never did it to me or anyone else again, i'm sure the old man is sleeping easier knowing with 100% certainty that there are 2 less people capable of coming back to his place.

[Kasierith]

Psh, we all start agreeing and being polite and suddenly the thread gets boring.

I've stayed in the same stance as I have allllll the way since page two, so its not my fault!

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've stayed in the same stance as I have allllll the way since page two, so its not my fault!

Sure it is.







Ok maybe not.

[Decagon]

I've stayed in the same stance as I have allllll the way since page two, so its not my fault!

I've changed my views a good two or three times in the 40 or so pages I've been here, I'm wishy-washy.

Anyways, it was fun debating with you guys, but I'm off to go kill bears in my sleep.

[fizzbob]

laws originally weren't meant to protect thieves, murderers, rapists, psychos. i'm glad those kids are dead, they were garbage or they'd not have tried to steal from someone in the first place. at 17/18 you don't "grow out of that"

it'd be different if they were 12 year old kids. at 17/18 you are what you are at the core. them being dead makes the world a better place so good riddance.