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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by knightpt View Post
    Even tough i realy like my Survival spec hunter wich i find realy realy fun with its mobility and rotation, i'm droping the towel till some buffs arrive.

    It's all fun and peaches to play casualy and have fun with your class but when you simply can't mathematicaly compete with 6 other guildies simply because they picked class X and Y, even tough you have the same ilvl, same raid atendance, etc, this is where i draw the line.

    In the start everything is fine and dandy because players are adjusting, practicing, gearing, scalling and improving and everyone has some "excuse" not to be on top, but after so many weeks and still the same people being on top and the same people strugling this makes the whole game not worth it imho.

    Fun is essencial in the game, but for me i always had to have fun+performance, simply because most of my enjoyment and the will to get better gear is for that: competition. If i can't compete no matter how well i play or how much hours i spend practicing or what gear i get, because its mathmaticaly impossible to go over some classes/specs, then for me half the fun is gone and raiding is nearly a chore.


    I understand that some people are having fun, and i understand that some people are doing OK, and i also understand that most can think that my "complain" is not relevant because i'm not on a top 100 guild and thus the hunter dps is "fine" in casual play, but as a person that realy wants to compete at my level with my guildies and has no chance no matter what i do, i'll have to say that i'm throwing the towel and giving up on my hunter.

    It's realy sad when you can't play the class you enjoy because blizzard is (and always was) terrible at class balance. This whole "we'll fix it on next patch 3 months from now, or perhaps on the other one next to it in 6 months" is geting realy old, way too old...
    Well said... Just play the game and have fun stop watching charts, please..

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Hunters aren't getting any nerfs. The problem is, we ain't getting any buffs either.
    This really just isn't true. I think people are underestimating the benefit of the changes being made, mainly because they are not buffs that are represented accurately in a simulation. The removal of fox is enormous since it will allow us to literally move all of the time with no penalty. Most people are viewing it as a quality of life change that won't effect the way they play because they already know how to use Aspects.

    This change will allow us to view cast bars and reacting to mechanics as seperate issues (no need to cancel casts or preemptively fox), allow us to constantly reposition ourselves and also generally eliminate a lot of the human error in this regard. I think if you analyze some of the top parses and their fox uptime, you will still see this as usually a 1% or more DPS increase, and on many fights it will be even more than that.

    The other core change that is being misrepresented are the MM buffs - naturally being able to cast AiS while moving will make a big difference later in to the tier when more haste is available, but the Steady Focus and Careful Aim changes actually put MM in a far better position than people realize. MM at the moment is not actually that bad, the gap between it and BM is just exacerbated by the fact that everyone plays BM. The sims are also wrong for a few reasons, namely that they all sim BM as Orc (which is a race that is not available to everyone), and that because simulations are usually run with artificial raid buffs and just one character, CA phase in a sim is usually lasting only ~6-8% of the fight (as the only entity in the Sim has 75% crit for this period). In a real encounter CA is likely to last more like 14-15%, potentially more in cases where there is HP resets (Protectors).

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunba View Post
    potentially more in cases where there is HP resets (Protectors).
    That is some misapplied logic there. Unless you are dpsing the wrong target, the CA phase lasts for an equal percentage of the fight, it just it just doesn't all happen in one chunk like a traditional fight.

    I also don't understand your other comments about sims.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    Facts are as pure dps class: all 3 specs are very low or even close to bottom in pve (check max t14 gear dps for all classes).
    http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html
    I'm a shadow priest, so as far as sim craft goes, zipp it hunters. Where rock pottom when sim craft is considderd.
    When that is said, i'm usually not anywhere near the bottom of our raid dps. The same goes for our hunters. Coud bothe hunters and shadow use a little buff, sure. But if youre dragging the meters, and youre raid hitts the enrage timers i'm positive it's more a learn to adapt issue then a "Buff me" issue.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    Facts are as pure dps class: all 3 specs are very low or even close to bottom in pve.
    I love the way you use the word Fact and then link simcraft.

    You don't see the irony there at all I guess do you?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    First of all NEVER EVER use simulationcraft as source of any information. Because this information has nothing to do with real raid environment. WOL is the only thing that you can rely on. And still you need to use it with caution.

    Second - guess what? There MUST be one class at the bottom of the dps chart. Hunters were at good spot in Cata. Now its your turn to be at the bottom.
    I do understand that no one likes to be at the bottom, but you can't disagree that when other classes were at the bottom before, you did not create "we need to buff %classname%" threads.
    sounds like you play a mage...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhva View Post
    That is some misapplied logic there. Unless you are dpsing the wrong target, the CA phase lasts for an equal percentage of the fight, it just it just doesn't all happen in one chunk like a traditional fight.

    I also don't understand your other comments about sims.
    The difference is that trinkets and cooldowns won't be up for the protector resets, which is the primary factor in why CA phase does not last 20% of the fight. This should in theory increase the value of CA.

    My argument about sims is that the current popular sims (i.e. front page of SimulationCraft) sim everything as an ideal scenario - this means BM is simmed as Orc, a race that is simply not available to many players and this should play a factor in what spec you choose. This logic also applies to lust usage, potion usage, fight length, etc.

    The other issue with MM sims is that they sim one hunter versus one boss. This artificially restricts the duration of CA since the only actor in the raid is doing a shitload of damage in that first 20%. I was comparing a SimCraft action list to the event output earlier and it had something like 31 events in CA phase, 354 events in total. This means that 31 events (less than 10%) into the fight, the boss was below 80% hp. This is not a reality in actual raids and this devalues CA as well.
    Last edited by Gunba; 2012-11-27 at 11:10 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Quilzar View Post
    I love the way you use the word Fact and then link simcraft.

    You don't see the irony there at all I guess do you?
    I dont really understand what you are trying to say. Explain if you wish.
    Here is another source based on wol parses.
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...14/60/default/

    Quote Originally Posted by arleni1988 View Post
    I'm a shadow priest, so as far as sim craft goes, zipp it hunters. Where rock pottom when sim craft is considderd.
    When that is said, i'm usually not anywhere near the bottom of our raid dps. The same goes for our hunters. Coud bothe hunters and shadow use a little buff, sure. But if youre dragging the meters, and youre raid hitts the enrage timers i'm positive it's more a learn to adapt issue then a "Buff me" issue.
    Shadowpriests got own issues i know (lack of aoe, multidoting instead, no orbs at start of the fight if you wipe on 1st try after trash).
    To be honest if hunter or sp in your raid top dps meters regularly in 25 man, there is huge gear or skill gap, between you and rest of the raid
    Thing is hunter is pure dps class, and still is worse than many hybrid classes, that is sad.
    Imo slight tuning on hunter scaling would be nice.
    Last edited by sultangurde; 2012-11-27 at 12:33 PM.
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  9. #29
    Even if they buffed MM I wouldn't want to go back to it unless it was changed back to wrath style. The only enjoyable spec right now is Survival, even though it's lower than BM single target.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    Even if they buffed MM I wouldn't want to go back to it unless it was changed back to wrath style. The only enjoyable spec right now is Survival, even though it's lower than BM single target.
    Yes! I feel the same
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  11. #31
    I like my marksman hunter. I've always played marksman, and I hated switching to survival in cata because everyone was complaining to me that I should cause it was "better". I will play the spec I enjoy the most, and for me its mm. Right now I'm competing with one of my raiders in dps, who is a fire mage. Once my gear improved I could pull better dps than most of my guildies, so I am happy with my hunter right now. The only thing I don't like is removing the aspect of the fox. For me personally, I liked the aspect dance as I am very good at it XD. But meh... I'll get used to the changes v.v

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlinglady View Post
    I like my marksman hunter. I've always played marksman, and I hated switching to survival in cata because everyone was complaining to me that I should cause it was "better". I will play the spec I enjoy the most, and for me its mm. Right now I'm competing with one of my raiders in dps, who is a fire mage. Once my gear improved I could pull better dps than most of my guildies, so I am happy with my hunter right now. The only thing I don't like is removing the aspect of the fox. For me personally, I liked the aspect dance as I am very good at it XD. But meh... I'll get used to the changes v.v
    I'm realy sorry to say this and please forgive me if you take it personaly or feel that i'm trying to put you down (because i'm not), but if you are competing with a fire mage now and beating him sometimes (well, competing is win some, lose some) then your fire mage is not realy as good as he could be, and you are realy realy good. Those 2 combinations doesnt realy make the hunter class as a whole "competing" with fire mages, it just happens that in your particular situation you are doing OK due to the combination of the situations mentioned above...

  13. #33
    Right now I'm competing with one of my raiders in dps, who is a fire mage. Once my gear improved I could pull better dps than most of my guildies
    This is 90% of the problem, decent hunters are staying with or beating fail players of other specs so they come here and post how well hunters are doing and how we dont need buffs...

    Take a look at the numbers pulled from World of Logs:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1230619-The-numbers-are-in

    Its more than clear that hunters at every skill level are in a bad place.... please stop saying that you topped the lfr so hunters are great or you beat a fire mage that doesnt even know what scorch does... ancedotal evidence is ancedotal...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaubertlives View Post
    Aspect change is a nice buff. Hunters are fine.

    yea nice buff...what if boss is on 20% ore some kind of orb and you press cast Cobra shot but you need stop cast and do Kill Shot ...what you neeed macro that stop cast and do Kill shot ha ha

    Cmon GUYS JUST LOOK WORLD OF LOGS WHERE IS HUNTER ON ENY KIND OF BOSS FIRST 10 .....NONEEEEEEE

  15. #35
    Mechagnome Ghraxxus's Avatar
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    Hunters have been reduced to nothing more than a Utility dps class... we can't compete(at least to the numbers ppl) We supply missing buffs and debuffs(thx to stampede)

    MM should only be used in shits&giggles times, as in lvling or doing the grind of dailies...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    First of all NEVER EVER use simulationcraft as source of any information. Because this information has nothing to do with real raid environment. WOL is the only thing that you can rely on. And still you need to use it with caution.

    Second - guess what? There MUST be one class at the bottom of the dps chart. Hunters were at good spot in Cata. Now its your turn to be at the bottom.
    I do understand that no one likes to be at the bottom, but you can't disagree that when other classes were at the bottom before, you did not create "we need to buff %classname%" threads.
    By the same token why does Mage keep staying at top in pve AND pvp? Been like that for 3 expansions now.

    I just took a look at Worldoflogs and Fire Mage is DOMINATING 10/25 normal. Seriously, you're hard pressed to see any other class much less Mage spec in the overall DPS for any boss. In Heroic theres more classes but Fire Mage is still represented there pretty heavy. With such a heavy disparity why dont they tone down the damage a bit in normals and let other classes be able to roll?
    Last edited by Locruid; 2012-11-27 at 02:32 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    Facts are as pure dps class: all 3 specs are very low or even close to bottom in pve (check max t14 gear dps for all classes).
    http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

    BM opening burst will be much lower due to nerfs, and burst is all that BM really can offer.
    Survival still got top3 aoe dps in game, but on single target/multidot fights SV dps is low due to spec bad scaling. This spec really need 15% passive agility bonus back.
    MM was buffed but i got the feeling that not enough. MM depends on crit too much and with current tier/items it is hard to get 30%+ crit in raid enviroment, maybe some top raiders can reach 31-33% in BiS gear.

    That are just my 2 cents.
    Wouldn't really focus too much on it, because Elemental shamans are doing way higher dps than most classes that are above them on that chart.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    First of all NEVER EVER use simulationcraft as source of any information. Because this information has nothing to do with real raid environment. WOL is the only thing that you can rely on. And still you need to use it with caution.

    Second - guess what? There MUST be one class at the bottom of the dps chart. Hunters were at good spot in Cata. Now its your turn to be at the bottom.
    I do understand that no one likes to be at the bottom, but you can't disagree that when other classes were at the bottom before, you did not create "we need to buff %classname%" threads.
    We are still at the bottom of the logs. Go to raid bots it checks the top parses and hunters are at the bottom.

  19. #39
    Blizz said that lynx rush should do about the same damage just as a dot to stop burst in PVP. So the aspect change should be a buff since our rotation should never change at all during fights. So no more having to stop casting cobra to stop movement and losing focus gains
    I want to have a child and use it as a pulling tool in dungeons.

  20. #40
    Because of PvP, same as always. All nerfs are because of PvP.

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