Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
LastLast
  1. #121
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakesong View Post
    I don't know if I agree or not. When you say that the problem is not related to grinds, but to gear, it's basically the same, because you grind to get gear (or upgrade your existant one)., so one thing is related to the other.

    For example, in PvP, the game was desinged so the ones with better gear win easily, it doesn't matter if you are a good player or not, if you have "green" gear and the other has full epics, he will most certanly win. So gear, imo, is not a player perception of the necessity of grinds, but a real necessity imposed by the game (if you want to have fun, because, let's agree what being killed countless times to pvpers, or wiping all night because your gear is not high enought, is not fun).

    And I believe this is the main goal designed for world of warcraft, always have better gear to get, if not, you wouldn't see your gear becoming outdated every major patch.
    I'm going to sound crazily nostalgic by saying this, but that's due to the shift in player perception that has occured since Vanilla and TBC. While I agree that being stomped in PvP due to gear disparities is no fun, I also know that better players can overcome gear disparities. A lot of players use gear to replace skill. Now pvp has a ton of balancing issues and the gear reliance of WoW's pvp is a major part of it. But that's almost a different issue. If all gear were automatically equal and capped then class imbalances and synergies become the problem. WoW's pvp is troubled, maybe even broken, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Let's assume everyone is roughly evenly skilled and geared, but not in BiS gear. Shouldn't they be pvping to beat each other and enjoy that victory? The problem is that many players aren't. They are pvping at that point just to get to BiS gear, and once they reach BiS gear they often stop pvping. That's the problem, because that means if gear were automatically equal they wouldn't be pvping anyway, thus they're doing something for a reward without enjoying the activity. Compare that to the old vanilla world pvp battles at Southshore and Crossroads. There was no reward other than tiny amounts of honor. There were repair costs and rez timers (and dishonorable kills at certain points). Despite this people took part because it was fun.

    The same applies to PvE and raiding. Originally you raided to beat the boss. While raiding and beating bosses you just happened to gain gear that allowed you to beat more bosses. Now it seams that you raid to geat gear and while getting gear you just happen to beat bosses. I won't say the end result isn't the same, but because of the perception shift about which part of the equation is the important one, the nature of the way the game is played has changed.

    Now I won't say that all players play only for gear now, and that all players back then were totally altruisticly about the journey, that would be naive and blind. I do believe, however, that changes in design and changes in message from Blizzard have had an impact on the player base and it's perception about the nature of their experience in the game.

    I would definitely argue your last point though. The main goal designed for World of Warcraft, at least at the beginning, was to provide an epic world and journey for players to experience. I would say a practical side effect of providing greater and greater challenges was the necessity for character improvement, which in a gear based game can only be provided by better and better gear. The player base over the evolution of the game has forgotten about the importance of the experience and become obsessed with the gear and the game designers have given them what they want. The toggle mode hardmodes and retread model of raiding are a perfect example of this. Each boss now provides 3 levels of gear and has snooze mode, easy mode, and medium to hard mode. You no longer beat a boss to look forward to the next new boss. Now you beat a boss so that you can kill bosses you've already killed on a slightly harder numbers requirement (with maybe a mechanic or two) so you can get better gear. The journey is lost when you start jump back to the bottom of the staircase as soon as you hit the landing.

    That's a matter for a different topic though.

  2. #122
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    UK of Earth World & Northern Fat Land
    Posts
    2,418
    I hardly do raids these days, I am somewhat of a sub - but I have little pressure about playing now.

    I am free to do things at my own pace and explore, try new things and have fun.

    This has made WoW more refreshed.

    I stopped playing after the first tier of Cataclysm, my first major break, and now I am chilled and free to do whatever however.

    If you take this (or any other game) too seriously, it will slowly eat away at your soul.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    I thoroughly agree with yjmark. If you don't enjoy playing the game, then don't. There's no good justification for spoiling the game for others by cheating. Cheats belong back in single player games, not in a multiplayer environment.
    From what i read he enjoys the game. He enjoy pvping he just dont enjoy farming to have fun later.

    PVP is fun, having to grind pvp gear for the 3 time on a new character is not. it is not like we havent done that the past 11 seasons. What is worst now is that you have to farm 2 sets. in TBC you only had to farm honor for starting pvp gear and later arena points for the other gear.

    Now instead of loging in an alt to gear up you keep playing your main since you have to upgrade your gear. and there are 2 sets of arena gear to get not 1.
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
    Casual - This is a player that will let everything else take priority over wow.
    Hardcore - This is a player that is fine with putting things on hold while he's on wow.
    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
    Casual/Hardcore - Measure of Time

  4. #124
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Or you could realize that this isn't the gamestyle for you and move on? I am just having trouble understanding not the desire to cheat, but the apologetic nature towards those that cheat. Instead of chastising those that cheat part of this community instead supports said cheaters. There is no denying that certain elements of this game are not super fun to do. But by cheating you cheapen the experience for those that work on it legitimately on the light side and on the worse you make it more difficult for others.
    The problem is that the gamestyle of the game has been opened to debate by the designers themselves as the game evolved. Things like LFD, LFR, etc have shown that the designers are inherently devaluing the social dynamic of the game (here's something to quick form groups so you don't need guilds/friends), devaluing the idea of time investment (dungeons should be doable over a half hour lunch with time to spare and BGs should all be 30 minutes or less), and in general making design changes which say that spending time in the game isn't important to get goals accomplished. Maybe the player base asked for it and maybe they didn't, honestly, to me it makes no difference. The simple fact is that the game has moved away from the more traditional grind based play, albeit on an inconsistent basis.

    I don't support bots, but the fact is that the idea that automating functions in the game is more fun than actually playing the game to accomplish the same goal is a problem. Does it ruin other player's enjoyment of the game - yes. The fact that the journey isn't fun and only the goal seems to be might be viewed as a bigger problem though.

  5. #125
    Brewmaster Playintrafic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Gnomeregan
    Posts
    1,285
    I just dont like doing dailies. For that reason alone I am considering getting a bot to do them if I can find one that does so. I never did dailies until now. They were not required to raid which is what i like doing. Now they are (dont argue this fact, just dont. every guild I've apped to expects you cap your vp weekly, and then buy upgrades, otherwise your holding them back).

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post
    The problem is that the gamestyle of the game has been opened to debate by the designers themselves as the game evolved. Things like LFD, LFR, etc have shown that the designers are inherently devaluing the social dynamic of the game (here's something to quick form groups so you don't need guilds/friends), devaluing the idea of time investment (dungeons should be doable over a half hour lunch with time to spare and BGs should all be 30 minutes or less), and in general making design changes which say that spending time in the game isn't important to get goals accomplished. Maybe the player base asked for it and maybe they didn't, honestly, to me it makes no difference. The simple fact is that the game has moved away from the more traditional grind based play, albeit on an inconsistent basis.

    I don't support bots, but the fact is that the idea that automating functions in the game is more fun than actually playing the game to accomplish the same goal is a problem. Does it ruin other player's enjoyment of the game - yes. The fact that the journey isn't fun and only the goal seems to be might be viewed as a bigger problem though.
    Oh I agree with you 100%. I just don't see a simple solution to the problem outside of keeping notes about it for the next game they come up with.

    I just dont like doing dailies. For that reason alone I am considering getting a bot to do them if I can find one that does so. I never did dailies until now. They were not required to raid which is what i like doing. Now they are (dont argue this fact, just dont. every guild I've apped to expects you cap your vp weekly, and then buy upgrades, otherwise your holding them back).
    Either your applying to more of a hardcore guild in which case you should know what entails with that or you have been applying to some crap guilds. Gear from dailies are not mandatory, it is just helpful.
    Last edited by ngc2440; 2012-11-28 at 08:58 PM.

  7. #127
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Twitch & Youtube
    Posts
    18,210
    Anyone who believes you has not looked into MMORPGs as a seperate entity from the rest of gaming.

    MMOs in the days when WoW came out were about being hard, long, and grinding. EQ actually had severe punishments (level loss) for dying. Heck, the only way to level in EQ was to grind mobs for hours on end.

    That old playstyle still lives in a majority of asian MMOs, and the results show.


    *I'll give you a hint, everyone except the person at half health is a bot*

    WoW went with an easier, less punishing route, and does not have a problem with botting to the level Asian MMOs do. The randomized dailies also help with that, you can never be sure where you'll go. So a bot has to assume all dailies are possible, and thereby go to all 4 temples in one day.

    PvP does have a problem with bots, but it always has. IMO it's gotten better since bots are at least semi-intelligent now. Back in the day they would just queue for AB and stand at the Blacksmith the whole game. They wouldn't even fight back if attacked.
    Unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    If you dislike where WoW is headed in your mind, quit. Really. Sitting around complaining about "promises" that may or may not have been made isn't doing anything to help your cause. It's just making you look more and more like the constantly complaining and perpetually offended.

  8. #128
    This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.

  9. #129
    Stood in the Fire Halabash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    350
    OP, I agree to some of the points you made but i think there is a bigger issue.

    I agree with WoW being a big time sink and inherently with any time sink the individual will look and scrutinize the reward harder and harder the closer the goal comes into view, like a college degree and its value by the time you graduate is very similar to gearing for end game and the loot you'll get and its relevancy by the time you get there.

    The root issue I believe is that its a computer game and as such it gives a lot of power to the end user, you don't see botting on consoles because the media is and its interface inherently handicap the user. Now comes a compounding effect, the game is pay to play. So the person who pays gets the right to play and ultimately enjoy the content. If you create a bot to automate the mundane gating required by all players who are you hurting? arguably yourself for not experiencing the grind and other players that do not get a chance at those community resources like mining and herb nodes but as you mentioned they have loads of other stuff to do anyway.

    -Ok lets not try to justify it. The game says is against the rules because it is ultimately annoying for other players and it encourages unregulated black market trading (cash for gold), which is very illegal in most countries as trading game money or items for actual cash is done tax free, which is wrong and the company will be held liable....or will they?

    -Ok lets ban players that bot and do bot like things.
    Players that bot are also players that pay. Every account you ban you remove one revenue stream from your bottom line. You as a company did not do anything wrong the player did, you as a company are in business to make money selling your hard work, if you have stumbled upon another "competitive advantage" the only person hurting from this is......OTHER MMOS and similar games that are vying for a piece of the money pie that is online gaming.

    When you remove a botter you are potentially removing lots of revenue streams compared to the single one lost for an actual player, so a botter is arguably worth more to Blizzard than a regular player when it comes to numbers. Numbers are important to investors. If the numbers drop then the investors pull out. If the investors pull out then the company has less liquidity(uninvested cash on hand) to handle day to day operations. Paychecks come late for employees, bills get paid later, servers get consolidated because liquidity gives a company the ability cover its outstanding debts and purchase assets which speak toward market share and business agility.

    If you make this game a community run program, and remove profit and just make it about the community then you can put some real measures in against botting.

    I think bots are cheating but the big picture is if you got leveled by a friend that's cheating, if you bought gear from the ah that was better than what you had that's cheating. No that stuff isn't spelled out in the TOS but the guy that wrote the TOS was not writing the bible either they were looking to protect their investment which is the game from an exploitation that would, could,can and does earn additional money that the said company is missing out on. Essentially botting is kind of copyright infringement and the only person hurt from it or being infringed upon (legally) is Blizzard and who are they going to sue, all their players because its impossible to keep up with the number of people botting? are they going to invest heavily into a witch hunt where they monitor every account for botting or cheating? are they going to chase down every gm notification to botting if everyone assumes the other person is botting without any real evidence other than "they ran in circles during wsg"? are they going write a bot detecting program which uses an algorithm that can detect even the most sophisticated botting actions and then release it in a patch so every client has it to turn all the players into "bot cops", how do they handle false positives?

    this goes down a path of persecution for the players whom ultimately will decide if they don't like it they will leave and more than likely come back.
    .....so its up to them when they choose to have a problem with it otherwise its just a funny looking wart on the side of their face and everyone like blizzard has one so no big deal.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.
    Because botters are leaving their closets, can you imagine topic like this 2-3 years ago ? If Blizzard continues to ignore botting problem, then in two years we'll be discussing which botting program is most effective on these forums.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    Lol but if you don't want to do it... its not fun. That's his point.
    Fun to who? Some people do enjoy parts of the game the OP does not enjoy. Why should Blizz change the design? Just because the OP does not like it?

    Blizz has already made many changes to the game to reduce the grind needed to do things. It is a million times easier to gear up for raids now when compared to vanilla or TBC. Now, people want to make it even easier? It's a never ending request for Blizz to implement a "push my win button or else I'll bot".

  12. #132
    No, botting is not a natural reaction to game design "flaw", it is the natural reaction to finding a particular grind unenjoyable and only wanting to enjoy the result of the grind.

    "Fun" is an extremely a subjective thing and there is no way for Blizzard to create a game that is fun to 100% of the player base. There is no "flaw" here. There is a group of people out there that like dailies, just like there is a group of people out there that like LFR, etc etc. WoW's design is to be diverse enough so different people can find something fun to do when they log on.

    So where does bot come into this picture? People use bot to skip the part they do not enjoy and go directly to the part they enjoy. Simple as that. To suggest botting as an indication of a game design "flaw" is ridiculous for a game as vast as WoW. Personally, I hate honor grind. Let's say Blizzard made honor/conquest point earn based on an activity I enjoy, biking. So now everyone can go out and bike IRL everyday and earn honor/conquest to buy pvp gears in WoW. I would love that but how about others? I am dead certain that a group of people will hate this change.

    Again, botting is NOT an indication or reaction to design "flaw". It is simply a way for people to skip the grind that they do not enjoy, period. If your point is to say the "flaw" here is Blizzard failed to entertain 10 million+ people with every single aspect of the game in WoW then... I guess you are dead on, Blizzard failed there.
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  13. #133
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Brasil
    Posts
    245
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.
    Except that I, OP, don't bot.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 08:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Fun to who? Some people do enjoy parts of the game the OP does not enjoy. Why should Blizz change the design? Just because the OP does not like it?

    Blizz has already made many changes to the game to reduce the grind needed to do things. It is a million times easier to gear up for raids now when compared to vanilla or TBC. Now, people want to make it even easier? It's a never ending request for Blizz to implement a "push my win button or else I'll bot".
    No, not because I, OP, don't like it, but because a huge percentage of PvPers don't like it.

  14. #134
    I couldn't care less about people botting to get to 90, but please, stop flooding the auction house with your ill-gained items ;-;
    PS: Stop botting in BG's, they're completely broken because of you.

    "Livet er som en tissemand, den har op og nedture" - Ukendt

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakesong View Post
    No, not because I, OP, don't like it, but because a huge percentage of PvPers don't like it.
    Data for justification? Just because some folks complain about things on a forum, that does not make it a "huge percentage of PvPers".

    Also, did you stop to think that bots are probably ruining lower level PvP, which prevents a lot of newer people from enjoying PvP? Probably not, or else you would have realized that bots in PvP are a selfish solution that does not take into account other people who play the game. And defending people who use bots in PvP is pretty silly.

    Blizz should never design a game around people who are self centered and have no interest in others having fun.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Or you could realize that this isn't the gamestyle for you and move on? I am just having trouble understanding not the desire to cheat, but the apologetic nature towards those that cheat. Instead of chastising those that cheat part of this community instead supports said cheaters. There is no denying that certain elements of this game are not super fun to do. But by cheating you cheapen the experience for those that work on it legitimately on the light side and on the worse you make it more difficult for others.
    The problem is exactly that.

    I think the inherent problem with the honor grind is that it is a foundation to higher-level-pvp. Botting aside for a second, You get lumped into a battleground with 9+ strangers with varying levels of skill, against a similarily rag-tag opposition. Sometimes you will get skilled players on one side, the other, or both sides.

    There's no governance of skill (and no penalty for poor play like rated matches) A team of veteran players can be matched against players who are just starting into PVP. Ultimately you get little to no say in the outcome of the match. Sometimes you'll win, because the matchmaker happened to give you a team that knows what they're doing. other times you might lose, because the matchmaker randomly assigned you to fight a team full of considerably more experienced players.

    Essentially, If all BG's were rated BGs (even if they didn't require a premade) that affected your personal ratings and your rate of honor income, botting would diminish. It's because there's still a prize for losing that botting can continue to exist.

    Botting is not 100% a design fault, I can agree with that. But if the system is broken to the point where it's merely a hurdle to get to the good stuff, it becomes more lucrative to cheat and bot through the boring stuff, and jump right to "the good stuff". (this is doubly true for people who are partial to Arena PVP, as there's no real way to get your honor gear running arenas.)

  17. #137
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Brasil
    Posts
    245
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Data for justification? Just because some folks complain about things on a forum, that does not make it a "huge percentage of PvPers".
    When you join an AV and 30+ players are bots, you can only come to the conclusion that a significant amount of PvPers bot.
    The main point of the topic was to make you all think of why players Bot, and if Blizzard is in part responsible for this. So, if low level pvpers are having their experience exploited, maybe it's because blizzard designed a game where players would take botting into consideration when facing the obligation to get gear.

  18. #138
    I stopped at the fail of the OP to compare a RP-Game to a JnR-Game... D&D has allways been a grind...

  19. #139
    Field Marshal shamozzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Stormreaver-US
    Posts
    93
    If they would stop talking about bans and actually do something severe and visible it would have an effect.
    But talking about banwaves that no one can actually see is not a preventative measure.

    We're at the point where examples must be made or it will continue to spiral out of control.

    And let's be honest, at the end of the day do they really care whether its 10 million players or 10 million bots using legitimate CCs?

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakesong View Post
    When you join an AV and 30+ players are bots, you can only come to the conclusion that a significant amount of PvPers bot.
    The main point of the topic was to make you all think of why players Bot, and if Blizzard is in part responsible for this. So, if low level pvpers are having their experience exploited, maybe it's because blizzard designed a game where players would take botting into consideration when facing the obligation to get gear.
    The big problem with your logic is the only way to avoid people feeling the "need" to bot is to give the players everything they want. If there is any sense of grinding people will bot. Which brings us back to square one people are lazy and want rewarded for zero effort.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •