[Fire] New Hotfix - Fire nerfs

[Pandacally]

I think that nerfs in general were needed, but how they've done it is terrible. I don't like playing fire because of RNG, and because in a 10man heroic raid setting, bad rng did not only screw you, but your whole raid. On the other hand, if you get the right crits (which happend more often with increasing gear, obviously), Mage dmg became uterly stupid. I remember Gara'jal HC firstkill, with the players in our raid averaging like 25-27mil boss dmg on a 6 min fight. When I had a good pull with bloodlust, I did like >10mil DMG in less than 1 min, which is 40% of average player DMG on a 6min fight. And then there were trys, where I had 5mil dmg done after 1min. Those trys, we wiped on the enrage. We finally killed the boss, when I did good pull DPS and nobody screwed up til the end.
For me, RNG is just bad design, even more in a small 10m raid setup, because your team can not rely on you, that you are capable of fullfilling your role.
Unfortunately, heroic firstkills are often very tight, and we mages have no other "heroic viable" specc. I still refer to 10er raidsize, because every player there has a lot more dutys/more movement than in 25m raidsize. In 25man, arcane is an option, because you can stand in the rune. In 10m, arcane is rather unplayable. An for frost, it can be viable on a few fights, but unfortunately, frost sucks on bosses with +dmg phases, because of the lack of burst.

So nerfing fire somehow makes mages even more redundant/less popular in 10m heroic progress raids than they are now. Of the Top20 10m guilds, only 6 Mages were found in the "firstkill-setup" of 20 raid groups, compared to classes like druid (29), priest(27), paladin(28), they are 5 times less popular. Most progress orientated 10m guilds rather pick a second druid/priest/pala for their team before filling it up with other classes, then there come warrior, locks, dks, hunters (about every top20 raid group has 1 of them), then they pick shaman (11), monk (10), rogue (10) and at last mages (6). And that was even before the nerf.
So I wonder, why other non-hybrid pure DPS classes (hunters, locks, rogues) have the edge over mages in 10m HC progress, despite mage being the best DPS class?
And the only answer to that is, that mage DPS is not reliable and beside DPS, mages bring nothing to the table.
Now they nerf mage dps (which is fine), but also make them even more RNG dependant, and still give them no utility at all.

So what they should have done, is nerf pyro spell coefficient by 40%, but make it less RNG dependant to get. If pyros hit less hard, overall dmg AND combustion dmg is lower. When combustion dmg is lower, you can remove the 3-target cap of combustion, which would Fire mage make once again a good AoE Specc, but a medium single target specc.

[Trigunflame]

Sims aren't reliable for testing one spec against another as they are independent modules in varying states of completion and thus accuracy.
Use them (with care) for comparing upgrades within the same spec, that is all & nothing more.

There is a reason Fire has been leading the way thus far, regardless of what simcraft shows.
Most of us have played frost and/or arcane in a raid and dropped it for Fire, for good reason - it demolished them hands down.

Go look at raidbots (not sims, actual data via WoL parses) and see how bad Fire stomped the other two specs; even after the nerf, Fire will still likely be the top Mage spec.

[royals]

I'm a little confused at peoples brash overreactions on the forums. I whole heartedly agree this was like a big backhand to the face sneak attack ninja hotfix nerf. But what I don't agree with are the infinitive statements people are making here.

1. "Fire is ALWAYS 20% above everyone else" - In WoL fire will always parse higher, because of RNG its DPS swings can be up to and including insane stupid numbers. Also understand that each raid group varies and playerskill is a big factor... Using sims ans an example, for all specs of everything there is about a 10-15% swing from Top (affliction) to bottom (Survival), and in our raid our survival hunter keeps up with the affliction lock just fine. (Who usually fights me for top dmg as fire or frost).

2. "I have to unsub now they ruined the game" - these always make me laugh a little. Why? Why unsub because one spec got "hotfixed" and it sucks for you today. Haven't we all played long enough to go through the ups and downs of balancing? I remember the days of playing moonkin in Naxx25 and basically being a buffchicken... Moonkin Aura? Check... dps... well doesn't matter we knew it would suck.

3. "Our DPS is screwed I will have to go frost or arcane!" - Ok, the nerf sucks, we all agree, but no one is going to be required to change specs YET. Yes we all want to min/max, yes we all will more than likely play the highest parsing spec (personally hope to never have to play arcane again), but until we can actually get some numbers as to how the two are comparing and people stop looking at WoL top 200(It has logs dating back beginning of 5.0 so were comparing apples and oranges at this point) and start comparing median parses or simcraft many iterations... we don't know, and without knowing and just going on "Feeling" I'm not ready to say the sky is falling yet.

TL;Dr Nerf Sucks, We all want our massive combusts back, Personally I don't think we are going to have to run from fire as in practice it still should perform better, but frost is looking more and more tasty these days.

Happy Hunting

[Magemaer]

Go look at raidbots (not sims, actual data via WoL parses) and see how bad Fire stomped the other two specs; even after the nerf, Fire will still likely be the top Mage spec.

I wouldn't take raidbots as a good reference, not without a lot of salt.
Frost is way lower than it should be. Why? Because mages are running fire as their primary spec and are itemized for fire. You're getting parses of an incorrectly geared frost mage. Also, when they go frost they go for a reason, like for on-demand burst or more control, to perform side duties, like in legacy. So no, not a good reference.

[Trigunflame]

I wouldn't take raidbots as a good reference, not without a lot of salt.
Frost is way lower than it should be. Why? Because mages are running fire as their primary spec and are itemized for fire. You're getting parses of an incorrectly geared frost mage. Also, when they go frost they go for a reason, like for on-demand burst or more control, to perform side duties, like in legacy. So no, not a good reference.

Some are incorrectly geared, not all - the same can be said about Any of the specs being reviewed.
Just because you might run an alternate spec in an inefficient fashion doesn't mean most will.

Either way, you will still see trends depending on the filtering you're using as to where they stand.
I personally filter via "all parses" as opposed to "top 100" as the former significantly normalizes the data set for varying skills & itemization where as the latter lends itself to RNG and getting help (tricks, etc) which skews the data heavily.

[charizma]

damn, i just switched to fire too. I liked frost a lot, I just hate lugging around the huge ass water elemental everywhere.

[mrgreenthump]

Some are incorrectly geared, not all - the same can be said about Any of the specs being reviewed.
Just because you might run an alternate spec in an inefficient fashion doesn't mean most will.

Either way, you will still see trends depending on the filtering you're using as to where they stand.
I personally filter via "all parses" as opposed to "top 100" as the former significantly normalizes the data set for varying skills & itemization where as the latter lends itself to RNG and getting help (tricks, etc) which skews the data heavily.

Well yes and no, very much no actually, Frost was so much behind fire before this nerf that no really really good mage was fire, unless they just didn't care to be the very best, which in turn means you wouldn't be a really good mage in the first place. And after this nerf, who would really go frost? Fire aint nerfed to the ground, the spec will still work for the fights that arcane wont, and arcane will pull a a lot more dps than frost on most fights out there..

[Shmeh]

Well yes and no, very much no actually, Frost was so much behind fire before this nerf that no really really good mage was fire, unless they just didn't care to be the very best, which in turn means you wouldn't be a really good mage in the first place. And after this nerf, who would really go frost? Fire aint nerfed to the ground, the spec will still work for the fights that arcane wont, and arcane will pull a a lot more dps than frost on most fights out there..

That doesn't seem true at all. Frost and arcane are very close right now. And fire is way below both.

[jtmzac]

Well yes and no, very much no actually, Frost was so much behind fire before this nerf that no really really good mage was fire, unless they just didn't care to be the very best, which in turn means you wouldn't be a really good mage in the first place. And after this nerf, who would really go frost? Fire aint nerfed to the ground, the spec will still work for the fights that arcane wont, and arcane will pull a a lot more dps than frost on most fights out there..

I don't think that's quite right. I think good is defined if you can play the spec well not if you play a spec just because it does the most dps. I don't play fire because I don't like it not because I can't do it. Does that really make me a bad mage?

I've always said that practice on a fight is the main factor in a wipe or a clear, not anything else. If playing frost is letting your raid team down then there's a good chance there's probably a lot of other things that are causing problems that aren't to do with your spec.

[Schizophreni]

Where did this idea that frost is under performing come from?

Arcane is never going to be played to its full potential, and it's a detriment to play it in a raid.

Frost in general when played right is going to hit near where you're simming it, the problem was fire was always simmed too low to what was actually happening. With this change though I have my doubts whether fire can really be respectable for damage at all, though I am not sure of it, but I do know that playing it is going to become far more frustrating.

[mrgreenthump]

I don't think that's quite right. I think good is defined if you can play the spec well not if you play a spec just because it does the most dps. I don't play fire because I don't like it not because I can't do it. Does that really make me a bad mage?

I've always said that practice on a fight is the main factor in a wipe or a clear, not anything else. If playing frost is letting your raid team down then there's a good chance there's probably a lot of other things that are causing problems that aren't to do with your spec.

Well maybe I used wrong wording there, but not being "really really good" doesn't mean you are terrible ofc, its just that.. how should I put this. It was so far behind fire if you executed fire proper that you couldn't justify it in a progress oriented guild, when fights have tight enrage timers.. Like sure for some fights it was more than ok, still behind fire, but ok.. For me it went to the point that I really couldn't be arsed to switch specs on each fight(which seems is what I have to do from now on), that I just sticked with fire the whole way.

And sorry, if I'm a terrible frost mage, but I aint seeing frost and arcane in the same category atm, sure its a bit situational, but based on the short time I have managed to do heroic and normal raiding this week with both specs(as I kinda sniffed fire nerf inc), I aint seeing frost near arcane unless the fight had movement in it, And even then it seemed to be behind.

[Deleted]

I'm finding fire horrible now... casting for long periods of time without fireball critting causing me to use my pryo without HU(so i do not waste HS) :/ the CM nerf is actually a pretty big one, with the lack of crits it's becoming very hard to get an ignite even worth using combustion on.

[jtmzac]

Well maybe I used wrong wording there, but not being "really really good" doesn't mean you are terrible ofc, its just that.. how should I put this. It was so far behind fire if you executed fire proper that you couldn't justify it in a progress oriented guild, when fights have tight enrage timers.. Like sure for some fights it was more than ok, still behind fire, but ok.. For me it went to the point that I really couldn't be arsed to switch specs on each fight(which seems is what I have to do from now on), that I just sticked with fire the whole way.

And sorry, if I'm a terrible frost mage, but I aint seeing frost and arcane in the same category atm, sure its a bit situational, but based on the short time I have managed to do heroic and normal raiding this week with both specs(as I kinda sniffed fire nerf inc), I aint seeing frost near arcane unless the fight had movement in it, And even then it seemed to be behind.

It's just a bit strange since what you say is different to what's widely accepted.

As strange as it may sound you'll play a spec better if you enjoy it and it doesn't sound like you enjoy frost very much. Your previous experience will certainly contribute to this. I'm fairly open to non-fire specs because I've never liked it so I played arcance pve and frost pvp in 4.3 and I play frost/frost now.

I would suggest comparing yourself to a frost mage that is someone else. It helps eliminate bias and they might have more frost based gear.

[Maelstrom51]

I agree with the fire nerfs. Even with bad RNG they were top or close to top dps. With good RNG nobody had a chance to beat them.

[mrgreenthump]

It's just a bit strange since what you say is different to what's widely accepted.

As strange as it may sound you'll play a spec better if you enjoy it and it doesn't sound like you enjoy frost very much. Your previous experience will certainly contribute to this. I'm fairly open to non-fire specs because I've never liked it so I played arcance pve and frost pvp in 4.3 and I play frost/frost now.

I would suggest comparing yourself to a frost mage that is someone else. It helps eliminate bias and they might have more frost based gear.

Mm maybe so, but still I consider myself being able to execute a dps rotation somewhat decently after doing it for a while, but I might have skipped a few beats here and there as frost, which is the be expected, but I certainly didn't play perfect arcane, I made so many mistakes with it that it made me a bit mad at myself, yet the dps I pulled was really good with it. So atm its a bit apples to oranges for me, cause unless its a progress boss, I cant really compare the 2, cause yes while there is 16 bosses, but when you 1-2 shot most of them aside from maybe some rng'ish heroics its not much time to test things out or learn the spec and it certainly comes harder when you try to do it with 2 specs.

Maybe am a bit paying the tax of being fire for the whole expansion

[hulkgor]

About time they got lowered down... Fire Mage damage was ridiculous, and would only get more extreme with better gear... So yea, im actually glad they took measures and nerfed them. Haven't raided since the changes so i don't really know how it will <actually> translate ingame, but it was badly needed.

Just hope to see further tuning on other classes that need some love, or some nerfhammer action.

[Deleted]

Okay, Firemage will still do more damage than hunters (which also are a pure dps class and who do not have 3 competetive dps speccs like mages). Why is everybody complaining about the nerf? Why arent you asking for a Hunter buff? Because that seems to be more of a need than buffing fire again...

[scuac]

Okay, Firemage will still do more damage than hunters (which also are a pure dps class and who do not have 3 competetive dps speccs like mages). Why is everybody complaining about the nerf? Why arent you asking for a Hunter buff? Because that seems to be more of a need than buffing fire again...

Well, you cannot expect a thread in the mage forums to not focus on mages. It's kind of the whole point.

[Rogge]

FYI here is a link to GC's twitter responses to the changes.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7199643664\

He seems to be coping a lot of flak over these hotfixes.

Topic is gone. What did it say?

[Deleted]

Well, you cannot expect a thread in the mage forums to not focus on mages. It's kind of the whole point.

Just putting the nerf into some relation. You mages are way overreacting. It vould be way worse, stop qq'ing, learn to play frost/arcane.