Should death assistance be your OWN choice?

[Skyr]

I am talking about death assistance in your final stages of life its 100% certain you are going to die and all you got left is pain.

This really bothers me. I tell you a tragic story that happend recently.

2 weeks ago my Grandmother went into her final stage of her life.
She stopped eating, could not move but had the strenght to say a few words here and there.
She could not be fed intravenously due to her condition and she did not had the strenght to swallow water. If she swallowd water she would not have the strenght to cough and would have been choked.
So she was left to starve to death.

The only water she was given was sprayd on her lips and mouth for it to absorb.

A week went by without food and a few drops of water everyday she eventually stopped talking. The last words were
Please I beg of you. I am in so much pain. Let me go.

Then she was left there but only to breath. Could not move or speak but she was still alive.
Every hour or so she would stop breathing for 30 seconds and then she would gasp for air.

We knew she was awake the entire time even tho it looked like she was sleeping. And then would most likely be able to feel the pain aswell. She broke her shoulder the day before she went into the final stages of life it could not be fixed. So her whole arm/shoulder were dark blue and it looked so painfull.
When we would talk to her about how good of a mother/grandmother she was the breathing pattern changed significantly.

It continued like this for 7 days untill her body let go and left for a better place.


This really bothers me that she was left in 2 weeks of constant pain when she made it clear she had made her peace and it was time to go.

I am not sure how it works in different countries but atleast is mine it is illegal and if done considered as murder..

[Wulfstan]

I don't see why not, we do it for animals that are suffering.

[Deleted]

It should be legal to those who suffer or are irreversible damaged, either by an accident or from birth.
Nobody gains from keeping these people alive. They cost resources, time and it's very painful for relatives to watch them suffer.

Also, no living thing should have to suffer in vain.

[skrump]

Their are many rules/regulations/laws imposed on the people of the world that are not only unfair/unjust but nor do they make any sense what so ever, this subject being one of those cases.

My stance is that the government should not have the ability to restrict it's citizens from doing to their own bodies as they please unless that person is legally responsible for someone else.

For example if you are the legal guardian of a child I think the government should have the right to impose laws denying you the right to consume alcohol/tobacco or any other potentially harmful substance, but ifi you have no legal responsibilities to anyone else then the government should have no stake in your own personal health.

This of course would be naturally beneficial simply because people with dependencies on alcohol/tobacco/narcotics would be much less likely to breed and screw up the lives of a child.

[Tradewind]

Their are many rules/regulations/laws imposed on the people of the world that are not only unfair/unjust but nor do they make any sense what so ever, this subject being one of those cases.

My stance is that the government should not have the ability to restrict it's citizens from doing to their own bodies as they please unless that person is legally responsible for someone else.

For example if you are the legal guardian of a child I think the government should have the right to impose laws denying you the right to consume alcohol/tobacco or any other potentially harmful substance, but ifi you have no legal responsibilities to anyone else then the government should have no stake in your own personal health.

This of course would be naturally beneficial simply because people with dependencies on alcohol/tobacco/narcotics would be much less likely to breed and screw up the lives of a child.

Yeah all people who drink and smoke are shitty degenerates.

/sarcasm because people here don't seem to fucking get it.

[skrump]

Yeah all people who drink and smoke are shitty degenerates.

/sarcasm because people here don't seem to fucking get it.

Wouldn't say that as I not only drink on occasion but I also have a pack a day smoking habit and I also enjoy pot and on occasion even like to enjoy some recreational use of Coke/meth, I am just saying that the government is well within their rights to force responsibility upon parents and those who have legal guardianship of others who are otherwise unable to care for themselves.

[Tradewind]

Wouldn't say that as I not only drink on occasion but I also have a pack a day smoking habit and I also enjoy pot and on occasion even like to enjoy some recreational use of Coke/meth, I am just saying that the government is well within their rights to force responsibility upon parents and those who have legal guardianship of others who are otherwise unable to care for themselves.

That would be cool if that's what you said lol. You didn't set limits or anything, just that the government should tell you never to have kids if you have a drink or smoke...ever. Which is ludicrous.

[Rotted]

I had a similar experience,

My grandmother as well,

She had cancer in her hip, it went un-noticed, (Our doctors for you) her hip slowly disintergrated, and fragment of the cancer ridden bones circulated her body, a few piece lodged in her chest, the rest infected her blood, for those of you not to sure, if you get a primary cancer, dependent on other factors, but you have a chance to live, if you got secondary, your fucked, she had a third type, which is very very unusual, oh and to top it off, she was sent home with a bug thats worse that MRSA and in a normal taxi, thats right a normal taxi with a broken hip on one side, and the other side missing,

We had to watch her slowly go off food, I mean before we knew about the cancer she was eating less and losing weight at a scary rate, but after she came to our home to live out her days, it was unreal how little she was taking and food and water wise,

My mother, (her mother - my grandma) wished we could put her out of her misery in the last 3 days to a degree, but the last 24 hours was unreal, but my gran was conscious enough to say not to mourn, to have a good time after shes gone etc, she told me she was scared, but she didn't tell anyone else, anyways fast forward to the night - day - night she passed away, we called the doctor out, and he gave her a sedative to knock her out so she could pass away in peace, He had to come back 5 times in one night, to give her another sedative because she resisted them, it was unbelievable, he said he couldn't give her any more as the amount he gave her should of already killed her. So we waited until morning, when the nurse came and saw us, she said straight away, she would give her a sedative, and that was it, she would be asleep until she died, it would practically encourage her to die, as she put it into her tube, she was conscious but dilarious, as the sedative went in, I remember the nurse saying, its alright sleep now, sleep <name> she passed away about 4 hours later that night,

Now from my grans and my familys point of view, she didn't want to be euthanized, so we would of never asked for it, but I can releate to how people in that situation would want someone to finish them off, and I think it should be allowed, however, I do think if someone gives their permission, it should be done with a witness, a week or a few days prior to the point where their mind isn't "fit"

[Illuminance]

"Should death assistance be your OWN choice?"

I sure hope it's not someone else's choice lol

[Wiyld]

I agree that in some cases we should not use every possible resource to keep someone alive.

I also suffered through the process of watching my grandmother die, though she had been suffering from severe Alzheimer's for years and years already. She lived in a special home, where she was locked in, was strapped down to her wheelchair with an alarm that told everyone in the building if she stood up. Standard practice to avoid falls. The last thing I remember her actually enjoying was ice cream. Her death took more then a week, though its really hard to actually quantify the process of death in cases like these. Contrary to the movies natural death is not usually a quick deal, where the person closes their eyes and poof, dead. It takes weeks, and the people who work in those environments know clearly what the signs are. Death is also bizarre, my grandmother would go from being entirely comatose for 2 days, then suddenly open her eyes, sit straight up and demand things. Strange things, things that made it clear it was not 'her' anymore but a totally irrational and delusional result of a damaged, dying brain. People who are dying like that also stop eating, it isn't so much an inability to eat, they simply stop wanting to eat. Much like so many other animals, when we reach that point of no return, our bodies realize there is no point and that system shuts down. We would melt ice cubes on her lips, or dip candy suckers in cold water and rub it inside her mouth to help her feel more comfortable. No one likes having a super dried out mouth.

I guess I didn't need to share all that, just thought it might be somehow relevant.

Some things to consider however:

There is a difference between keeping a person alive though the use of machines, air lines and feeding tubes, and actively killing them. In my grandmothers case she had 0 machines connected to her, her room was nice and quiet. Yet she still held on for a long time, for what reason, well I think each family member has their own theory. You need to be very specific in whether you mean actually killing people from things like 'do not revive' orders which we already have here in the US.


Consider that there is a huge difference between the lucid otherwise healthy individual who is in intense pain from cancer and the completely demented old person who is never going to give you a clear choice. There is a difference between the person suffering from HIV complications who just wants to give up, and the person who has been in a coma for 10 years. Allowing people to choose to die, assumes they are capable of making a clear choice. In some cases they might be able to, in many they are not. One would argue that in many cases people in intense pain would say yes to anything in the heat of the moment, even if that thing they suffer from might be able to be cured, or at least relieved to some degree.

Lastly, and most unfortunately, with suicide as an option, we also will have people who will push for it to serve their own ends. Grandma is taking too long to die and you want your inheritance? Suicide! I'm not suggesting anyone in particular will certainly do it, but I think I can say with a fairly confident degree of certainty that it will happen.


I guess I feel that some relaxation of the law in these situations is in order. But I'm not prepared to simply legalize it to the point that we start seeing ads on TV for home suicide kits.

[Deleted]

Of course. It's incredibly selfish to force someone that wants to die to stay alive because putting them down would hurt your conscience or offend your sensibilities or whatever shitty excuse anyone has for forcing a 100 year old living skeleton to slowly and painfully wither to death.

[Letmesleep]

I don't believe anyone has the right to tell someone else when they can and can't die. I believe in helping people, but I believe in personal freedom even more. When you try to determine the circumstances in which someone else can die, all you do is set yourself up as some kind of god. You become judge, jury, and sometimes torturer of someone else's life. It's asking other people to endure pain that you don't have to feel, and that is morally abhorrent. Under all circumstances, I believe adults have the right to die peacefully at the time of their choosing. We shouldn't have to ask everyone else when it's ok to end our own suffering.

[Shadowmelded]

-stuff-

Yeah what you're mentioning is the fact that passive assisted dying in the form of withdrawal of treatment is not illegal if it falls under commonly accepted medical practice and with the consent of the person on the receiving end. It can be done for people that are in coma's and have reduced capacity as well but it's not as common and has tougher restrictions.

Active assisted dying (i.e. any action that results in the patient's death) does not mean that you'd see adverts for home suicide kits, just look at the Oregon and Washington bills drafted regarding assisted suicide and euthanasia.


Personally I feel that autonomy should trump sanctity of life, most of the sanctity of life arguments fall back to religion. However there are real concerns that should be looked into when discussing assisted dying, and that is the possibility of the vulnerable being taken advantage of by people in a position of power over them, like say old people left at the hands of their children who might be after their inheritance.

[Deleted]

Quite a precarious position if we had laws that allowed people to end their own life due to suffering of any sort.

[Letmesleep]

Quite a precarious position if we had laws that allowed people to end their own life due to suffering of any sort.

How so? What gives you the right to determine what is and isn't a valid reason for ending one's life?

[Tradewind]

First world problems = not ok.
Terminal illness = ok.

[Shadowmelded]

Quite a precarious position if we had laws that allowed people to end their own life due to suffering of any sort.

It disproportionately affects the old and infirm, able bodied people are already capable of ending their own lives and in most jurisdictions suicide is legal (although I think it's only unspoken common law in most US states, that's not the case in England and Wales) The people who are trapped, suffering from conditions like locked in syndrome etc... are physically incapable of ending their lives and the suffering that comes with those conditions, especially if prior to the condition you were a fit and active person (Look up Tony Nicklinson for an example) can be quite severe. They can't go to dignitas, they can't use any machines designed for suicide since they would need to press the button even if the machine mixes up a lethal concotion and no one is allowed to do it for them or they risk up to 14 years in prison (in the UK at least) no matter what their relation to the person is and no matter what their intent was (end suffering, compassion etc...)

[Forfax]

How so? What gives you the right to determine what is and isn't a valid reason for ending one's life?

some poeple don't have the capacity to determine either or not they should be ending their life or not , there was to be regulation like EVERY Laws.

[tibben]

First of all, I am truly sorry that you, your family and your grandmother had to go through that experience.

I suppose if there were a law that allowed a person of sound mind to decide if they wanted to be laid down to rest when it was determined that there was no chance of survival then it wouldn't be so bad. As long as they make the decision ahead of time and while they are not under some type of horrible distress. If the person chooses not to sign such a document then they made their decision and are willing to accept the pain that would come with those final months/weeks/days. I do not think they should be allowed to make that decision while they are in such pain.

[Deleted]

How so? What gives you the right to determine what is and isn't a valid reason for ending one's life?

In the cases of certain degenerative mental diseases that render the person incapable of making the choice so who makes it for them in such a case if they are suffering?