Should father have any say about abortion?

[Myrrar]

You don't seem to understand the question at hand.

Apparently you don't. The question is: I find unbelieveably unfair that woman can have an abortion without the consent of the father (ignoring extreme cases like rape ofcourse). Should men have a say.

If you don't think an answer can be 'No, as long as we reform the system to where men don't have to be stuck either' I don't really know what to tell you.

[Jiggity]

I do not see the early stages of a pregnancy to be a person. Week 18 and onwards I could consider a fetus as a person but until week 18, no. It's a clump of cells in early pregnancy.


No, why would I be? I do not see a clump of cells as a child.







Obviously you do. I've never stated anything else.

Then if either party wants the clump of cells removed, what is the difference?
Think with the 4th dimension involved PLEASE.

And sure you never stated otherwise, however you inferred it with your response.

Last time i checked my life actually includes my body along with it. Allowing the woman the right to have a child without my consent (because it takes two people to make a baby) has a huge effect on my life, thus my body.

[Deleted]

Then if either party wants the clump of cells removed, what is the difference?
Think with the 4th dimension involved PLEASE.

And sure you never stated otherwise, however you inferred it with your response.

Last time i checked my life actually includes my body along with it. Allowing the woman the right to have a child without my consent (because it takes two people to make a baby) has a huge effect on my life, thus my body.

I do not know how many times I've linked this in the thread now..

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post19333533

Feels like I should post links to 2 of my posts in this thread in every reply for people to read so they don't just assume things which are not true.

[LiiLoSNK]

So, your solution to the current injustice of men occasionally paying some money is robbing women of bodily autonomy. How is that not just plain ol' misogyny?

I don't hate all women, I just hate that it's 100% up to them when men have more to lose.

If men don't want the child and the women does - We are stuck paying for it
If women don't want the child and the man does - They can just abort it and the father is forced to lose their child.

It's so broken that men have no say in something so huge.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Then if either party wants the clump of cells removed, what is the difference?
Think with the 4th dimension involved PLEASE.

And sure you never stated otherwise, however you inferred it with your response.

Last time i checked my life actually includes my body along with it. Allowing the woman the right to have a child without my consent (because it takes two people to make a baby) has a huge effect on my life, thus my body.

Your life includes your body, your body doesn't include your life.

[Spectral]

I just hate that it's 100% up to them when men have more to lose.

That's a truly impressive level of obliviousness. Pregnancy? Pfffft, no big deal compared to possibly owing some money.

[Choptimus]

It's so broken that men have no say in something so huge.

You have a say regarding who you pump full of your semen though.

I suggest you learn more about the women in your life before you fuck them, if you're worried about being "caught out" by evil gold-diggers.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 06:00 AM ----------

That's a truly impressive level of obliviousness. Pregnancy? Pfffft, no big deal compared to possibly owing some money.

Owing some money is the biggest understatement... You know full well that child payments can and do (regularly) ruin guys lives when it isn't necessary at all. (not all cases, not arguing your point, just don't downplay it like that yeah?)

[Gsara]

I don't hate all women, I just hate that it's 100% up to them when men have more to lose.

If men don't want the child and the women does - We are stuck paying for it
If women don't want the child and the man does - They can just abort it and the father is forced to lose their child.

It's so broken that men have no say in something so huge.

You do have a say, you could have said no to having sex in the first place. If you want to take the risk, then you have to accept the responsibility.

[Spectral]

Owing some money is the biggest understatement... You know full well that child payments can and do (regularly) ruin guys lives when it isn't necessary at all. (not all cases, not arguing your point, just don't downplay it like that yeah?)

No, saying that they owe some money is quite literally what happens, it doesn't downplay anything. I'd personally recommend against having kids when you can't afford them, but some people aren't so keen on the condoms, to all appearances.

[FathomFear]

If men don't want the child and the women does - We are stuck paying for it
If women don't want the child and the man does - They can just abort it and the father is forced to lose their child.

It's so broken that men have no say in something so huge.

Due to biological differences, straight guys have their "say" at the point where they decide where they're going to stick their penises. If you want zero chance of having a baby with a particular woman, then you really need to decide not to have sex with her. Part of being an adult is managing risk, and that includes chance of accidental pregnancy or chance of getting a STI. If you can't handle the risk of it happening, then you need to refrain from engaging in the sex.

[Choptimus]

No, saying that they owe some money is quite literally what happens, it doesn't downplay anything. I'd personally recommend against having kids when you can't afford them, but some people aren't so keen on the condoms, to all appearances.

K then getting raped is just getting some free sex.

[Spectral]

K then getting raped is just getting some free sex.

Again, good thing there's no misogyny in this thread.

[LiiLoSNK]

If it wasn't obvious enough, I clearly don't trust a strange woman as far as I could throw her. I'm obviously not taking any chances in this department. I speak for the men that have/could be screwed over by such a bent law

[Choptimus]

Again, good thing there's no misogyny in this thread.

Child support payments very often stretch to 2x, 3x, 5x, 10x what is actually needed, crippling the father in question. A bit more than "owing some money".

Getting raped leaves all sorts of trauma and is a horrific crime that nobody should ever go through. A bit more than "free sex".

Both statements are 100% accurate but you refuse to acknowledge the first, why?

[Kasierith]

Child support payments very often stretch to 2x, 3x, 5x, 10x what is actually needed, crippling the father in question. A bit more than "owing some money".

Getting raped leaves all sorts of trauma and is a horrific crime that nobody should ever go through. A bit more than "free sex".

Both statements are 100% accurate but you refuse to acknowledge the first, why?

You're establishing a pretty blatant false equivalency.

[Choptimus]

You're establishing a pretty blatant false equivalency.

Except I'm not, but ok. The point was about downlplaying situations, I gave an example of downplaying both situations and asked why somebody would not acknowledge they downplayed one situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Go read before you try to sound "smart".

[iggie]

Or the flipside...

Guys refusing to pay child support because they can't handle what they signed up for (the sex part) is apparently A-OK.

Sex is mutual. Apparently the women signed up knowing the guy might flake.

[Kasierith]

Except I'm not, but ok. The point was about downlplaying situations, I gave an example of downplaying both situations and asked why somebody would not acknowledge they downplayed one situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Go read before you try to sound "smart".

Uh huh, perhaps you should try reading before you go into personal attacks. You attempted to say that saying a father owes money is the same as saying rape is just free sex. Which is wrong in so, so many ways. No matter how much you go on about how unfair it is, the basis for fathers paying child support is that they owe money to the mother for the care of the child. Whether you agree with the amount is a different matter.

[Vellauno]

Keep in mind this is my opinion in most circumstances EXCEPT rape and/or medical (ie. mother could die from the pregnancy). My opinion is not yes, no or undecided (so I could not answer the poll). Whether the father gets a say or not depends on the situation. First and foremost, it should be illegal for any woman not to inform the father about the pregnancy (The baby belongs to BOTH parents and not informing the father should be considered kidnapping by law). If a woman gets pregnant, it is BOTH the mother AND father's fault in most cases (be it pregnancy due to an accident like a condom breaking or simple negligence, the fault and responsibility is with both parents!). If the father wants to take care of the baby and the mother wants an abortion, the father should have to sign a legal document declaring that he takes full responsibility for the baby after its birth and the mother then looses all custody rights to the child, must continue with the pregnancy, AND pay child support until the child is no longer a dependent (sorry female, just because you are the incubator does not make the baby anymore yours than the father's, so you need to take equal responsibility). If the father wants and abortion and the mother wants to keep the baby, too bad dad, you literally 'screwed' up. In this case the father must chose either to take care of the baby with the mother OR (ONLY if the mother agrees) sign a document relinquishing FULL custody to the mother and also pay child support until the child is of legal age. If both parents want to abort, the choice is easy (although perhaps not ethical, but that is a WHOLE other discussion).

This reminds me of a really screwed up situation someone I know was in. My friend (the woman) was practicing safe sex with her boyfriend (condoms AND birth control pills) and she never got pregnant as a result. The relationship was starting to get shaky and my female friend was afraid that her boyfriend was going to leave her. To make sure he stays with her, she used a pin to poke holes in all the condoms and stopped taking birth control pills. She should not have told anyone her plan though because another friend of mine told the boyfriend about this (Justly so!). Unfortunately, the boyfriend found out too late. When he said he wanted to brake up, she said that she was pregnant. Being a responsible man, her boyfriend decided to marry her and help raise the baby. Needless to say, when I found out about this I 'mysteriously' made sure to lose all contact with that woman.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind this is my opinion in most circumstances EXCEPT rape and/or medical (ie. mother could die from the pregnancy). My opinion is not yes, no or undecided (so I could not answer the poll). Whether the father gets a say or not depends on the situation. First and foremost, it should be illegal for any woman not to inform the father about the pregnancy (The baby belongs to BOTH parents and not informing the father should be considered kidnapping by law). If a woman gets pregnant, it is BOTH the mother AND father's fault in most cases (be it pregnancy due to an accident like a condom breaking or simple negligence, the fault and responsibility is with both parents!). If the father wants to take care of the baby and the mother wants an abortion, the father should have to sign a legal document declaring that he takes full responsibility for the baby after its birth and the mother then looses all custody rights to the child, must continue with the pregnancy, AND pay child support until the child is no longer a dependent (sorry female, just because you are the incubator does not make the baby anymore yours than the father's, so you need to take equal responsibility).

"sorry people, you do not own your own body"

Do you really think that would go down well with the population in western countries? :')
You'd see them aborting it themselves instead of relying on professionals.