Other tanks might be able to get by with an Agil weapon if it's a big upgrade but it doesn't work out for us.
Other tanks might be able to get by with an Agil weapon if it's a big upgrade but it doesn't work out for us.
TechGnosis - the only STR weapons I see are the ones with the epic gem slot (509), and those are listed #4 and lower in the list. But the math works out that they are better than some of the 502 weapons, even with the STR. Is that also what you are seeing? The BiS that I see are the Claws of Shek'zeer.
Also, Mr. Robot does allow for optimization up to a certain point, then it goes to the next stat. You can do this for cappable stats that matter, like Stamina for tanks, Haste breakpoints, Hit, etc.
Elegion and Scimitar of Seven Stars are showing in my list, neither have a epic gem slot (Scimitar is showing with a +320 hit gem). Scimitar has Mastery too so it's secondary stats aren't even well itemized. 496 Claw's are showing as BiS but two of the weapons before that don't make much sense to me.
As well, I really do want to stress that stamina shouldn't natively be so high in your stat weights... It's extremely confusing to a lot of people when it REALLY isn't that important. Stamina is only good to a certain point, and I've yet to have health trouble when barely gemming and enchanting for it. Hell basically every brewmaster here hasn't really found it necessary... one did, but it was contested by another who was doing the exact same encounter, so really it was more about the raid makeup.
It all comes down to math. Here's how they stack up. As you can see, the Claws blow all other weapons out of the water. But the math is what determines the ranking:
EQUIPPED: Gara'Kal (489) (Ranked #8 on Mr. Robot)
491 Agi * 1 = 491
737 stam * 1.34 = 987.58
347 Haste * 0.8 = 277.6
295 Mastery * 0.4 = 118
Reforge 118 Mastery to 118 hit = (118 hit * .85) - (118 mastery * 0.4) = 100.3 - 47.2 = 53.1
Elegion (502) (Ranked #11 on AMR):
554 Str * 0 = 0
832 Stam * 1.34 = 1114.88
386 Hit * .85 = 328.1
342 Exp * .85 = 290.70
Total: 1733.68 (worse than the weapon equipped, which is why Mr. Robot puts it in slot #11)
Scimitar of 7 stars (509) (ranked #6 in AMR):
512 Str * 0 = 0
887 Stam * 1.34 = 1188.58
360 Hit * 0.85 = 306
345 Mastery * .4 = 138
Reforge 138 Mastery into Expertise = (138 Expertise * 0.85) - (138 mastery * 0.4) = 117.3 - 55.2 = 62.1
240 Stam gem * 1.34 = 321.6
60 Mastery socket * 0.4 = 24
Total: 2040.28 (better than the equipped weapon, even with STR)
Claws (509) (Rank #1)
592 Agi * 1 = 592
887 Stam * 1.34 = 1188.58
309 Exp * 0.85 = 262.65
444 Crit * .7 = 310.8
550 Agi gem * 1 = 550
Total: 2924.03 (blows all other weapons out of the water)
Regarding the gem option - hey, it matters, it makes a difference!! Also, once we put the stam cap back in (sorry we bugged that out), the weapons might rank different. Mr. Robot will correctly score stats a zero when they go over the cap.
As to what Madgod said yeah the Stam thing is pretty crazy it pushed me over to the WW spec to get what I was after. Also, as mentioned I don't see any UI options for capping Stam or Haste?
Surreal - there should be an option to cap stam, but we bugged it in a recent update. We'll have that fixed soon, sorry about that.
Regarding the Kilrak, and a STR class not needing it - totally understand. You are right about that for sure. But, we don't like to filter out gear based on that, because if we take it out, other people have arguments to see it.
What about the haste breakpoints you mentioned earlier?
And yes, I saw you address this in the previous post. I wanted to bring your attention back to it because you really should edit that claim out.
Last edited by Ragethorn; 2012-12-06 at 10:16 PM.
Hey -- I do most of the work currently on the actual optimizer code for Mr. Robot.
1. We'll add the stamina cap for brewmasters, it should have been there but wasn't turned on for some reason.
2. As for a haste cap option for brewmasters... can someone point me to the best/most specific discussion of the topic, a really solid argument that you will see better performance when achieving specific thresholds of haste? Unless I'm REALLY convinced that it's a "thing" and that it matters, I am loathe to add it. The tanking optimization is already the most processor-intensive due to all the DR calculations, so adding more caps has a significant impact. That said, if it really is a thing, we will certainly add it.
3. The whole stamina discussion... can someone point me to some good arguments that gearing for stamina is a waste on a brewmaster -- something that does not rely on anecdotes? Our decision to increase the weight on stamina for all tanks was not arbitrary. There is a very good discussion on sacredduty.net that is not specific to any particular tank class and describes a philosophy similar to ours. That blog post links to an older article from cataclysm, but that is still relevant today: what do i do after reaching the block cap Though the "block cap" is no longer a relevant topic, the discussion of stamina in that blog post is still very relevant.
To summarize all of the stamina talk extremely briefly: if you are doing a boss fight where increasing your stamina doesn't matter... then the boss is not stressing your survivability. Whether you gear for stamina or avoidance or whatever will not matter. You could gem for spirit and do just fine. But if you ever find yourself in a situation where the boss is actually hard... you are probably going to want that extra stamina. The 2nd article linked has a good discussion of how stamina can help your healers conserve mana, and how you don't need to cross very specific "thresholds" of total health for stamina to be good.
4. Strength weapons in the list for brewmasters: yeah, there are some strength weapons in the list The ranking is purely mathematical. If you don't want to use a strength weapon... don't use one!
Running out of time for an in depth post or to read the article so will have to wait until tonight/tomorrow for that. For now I can start off by stating that the main reason stamina is so ignored by most BrM's is that Agil/Haste/Crit/Mastery basically have a near infinite ability to improve our CTC/mitigation so it's difficult to justify pulling resources away from them if you aren't getting killed due to to small of a health pull.
Haste - Energy to fuel our Chi generation that fuels Shuffle/Guard with excess able to go into L30 healing talents. "Haste Caps" are relative to creating enough Chi to utilize these abilities with near 100% uptime. After that point extra Chi's value has questionable value. Haste also improves Gift of the Ox sphere generation and Elusive Brew uptime (though slower than crit)
Crit - More Elusive Brew stacks means more uptime of 20-25% dodge bonus. Stacking Crit to EB being at anywhere near 100% uptime is impossible but something you "try" for.
Mastery - Increases the amount of damage we stagger away per hit so is effectively our version of Block. Synergies with Haste in that you need enough Chi to clear the dot this creates. This stat has no cap or DR or limit technically until you reach 100% which is impossible.
So when you look at all of the above and realize that you have an infinite pool to dump rating into that doesn't have diminishing returns it's hard to justify stacking stamina unless the fight or your gear level vs content requires it. Now factor in that stacking haste/crit is a DPS boost which means shorter fight, less chance of enrage timers, ect and it becomes even less attractive.
2) haste won't drop in value until you get to a point where you don't really need any more PB's, which is fairly relative.
3) hit and expertise help smooth out chi generation and keep it less wonky. However if we're talking pure math, techncially speaking you will get higher chi generation if you go into haste instead. Most people tend to try and get to at least 7.5% hit and expertise. Whether they go past 7.5% expertise is usually due to personal preference or a desire to deal more damage.
Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-12-07 at 12:52 AM.
So... my post just double-posted, then it got completely eaten when I tried to fix it =/ So here's try 3:
@Ragethorn Your post is useless and makes no sense, I stated that if there's a good reason for a haste cap we'll add it, but would prefer not to for performance reasons if it really isn't that big a deal. If it is a big deal, we'll add one. Moving on to useful posts....
SurrealNight and Madgod bring up a few interesting points.
I think the most interesting thing is that Stagger is a "guaranteed" mechanic. It smooths your incoming damage (but relies on chi to reduce it). That said, simply smoothing your damage has value in itself. This could put mastery as a candidate for higher priority than stamina (though of course it only works on physical... but how many bosses are there that don't do significant physical damage? Most of them do).
Haste is also interesting due to Shuffle up-time, which can become a permanent increase to a permanent damage-smoothing mechanic.
Crit is cool... but I would argue that it has a lower value than Haste, Mastery, and Stamina (from a burst damage survival perspective) because it only helps increase up-time on a dodge buff. Now it might be worth more than dodge or parry, or perhaps even hit or expertise... that I can't really say without more research.
So that said... I would like some more feedback if you all are willing to give it. Here's some specific questions:
1. What is the specific value of haste that is needed to reach 100% up-time on Shuffle? And related: if I increase my haste by say... 5%, how much of an increase in shuffle up-time am I looking at?
2. After you reach 100% up-time on shuffle... how much does haste's value really diminish? Or in other words, there are other chi-consuming abilities that you will be able to use more frequently. Does the increased frequency of those have considerable value, or not? And if it's not clear... yes, I'm looking for an excuse not to put in a haste cap But if it ends up being necessary because haste drops off significantly, then so be it! We'll write some code to handle it.
3. Where does hit/exp fall in this equation? I would assume it has a significant impact on chi generation as well.
And a few specific comments:
I don't think brewmasters are special snowflakes in this regard. All tanking classes rely heavily on generating and consuming a resource to mitigate a large % of incoming damage. That is why hit/exp/haste are so popular on paladins, or hit/exp on warriors, etc. Stacking stamina isn't "propping yourself up with gear" any more than stacking haste for shuffle up-time is "propping yourself up with gear." What we're trying to figure out is what's the best way to prop yourself up with gear?Brewmasters are significantly different from other tanks because our style of mitigation demands a focus on efficient resource generation and consumption. Being able to bump up your shuffle uptime will be much better for you than essentially proping yourself up with gear.
As for the weapon rankings... I think that the current ranking is not misleading or confusing -- it is mathematically sound, and it illustrates that agility weapons are superior. It takes a heroic strength weapon to be about on par with an LFR agility weapon. I think that makes the case pretty clear that you should be using agility weapons.
Sorry one more....do you use stam flasks/food? I'd have to bring my own food for the agi buff then i guess.
Caeth, we are using Stamina food and flasks, with the default weights. However, the Flask is being chosen based on stat weights, so if you change the weights, different flasks will be suggested.
The food might be hard-coded because you're given your 'best stat' from the feasts. I'll have to look up what your class is getting to double check that Stamina is right.
Some tanking thoughts that you might wish to consider, AMR people - most likely counter to many suggestions here. Then again I've tanked and I've killed heroic Sha of Fear so what do I know, right?
1.) Total overall damage intake is nigh-irrelevant. In general, tanks do not die because healers run oom or that they constantly bleed hp because their damage intake is higher than chain flash healing restores. Tanks die because they took over their maximum EHP in damage over a short enough period where they were not healed - ie. spiked. Any absorbs/damage removals/overall avoidance mechanics are in general, more or less pointless regarding survival.
2.) Too many people emphasize "damage taken" as the stat they should be trying to minimize. This directly detracts from total EHP. While overall avoidance, more chi for purifies, etc. will reduce the frequency of taking spikes to the face, all of those are irrelevant when Sha dread thrashes you and connects six times in a row in the face of your 75% avoidance. Oh it's happened. Multiple times.
3.) On the other hand, tanks don't really die in current content. Not unless you're pushing the edges of progression - ever since cataclysm, the tanking/healing paradigm has changed to the point where bosses are NOT hitting you for most of your hp in one autoattack, and oftentimes significantly less. Because of this spike reduction, avoidance/reduction setups are viable.
4.) Tank damage is pretty important these days where tanks are able to compete with the dps in overall damage. Specific fights like Will of the Emperors or Sha, where tanks do the lion's share of the damage on the main boss while dps are concerned with taking care of adds, tank damage makes a huge difference in terms of overall lesser damage taken by the raid. Or you can point towards the stupid paladin tank with 1.3 mil dps on heroic windlord who outhealed every healer on the fight.
5.) I quite honestly have no idea what is behind the haste stacking movement for brewmasters. With 0 haste and chi brew talent, a brewmaster has around 27 chi/min (assuming hit/exp caps), enough for shuffle to be up the entire time, two guards, and three purifies. Mastery and stam give more overall survivability. Crit and agility gives more dps. Haste gives you more chi which you can spend on ... more purifies? more heals? /shrug.
6.) There really needs to be two styles of tanking optimization on AMR. a.) I am dying. Maximizes EHP via mastery, stam while retaining hit caps for constant and predictable chi flow. b.) I'm not dying, so I want to look good on the meters - emphasize haste here for lowest damage taken and healing done, or crit/agi for damage done. Both are valid for progression, depending on the fight. You pick choice b.) on amber shaper, for example, but a.) if you're always getting trounced by sherkzeer adds.
7.) hit/exp is basically essential and something that should be capped for any serious progression tanking. Raiding is all about bringing order to the chaos of the fight and having inherent randomness in the most important raid member's actions is just silly. For what it's worth, the stat values I go by are ordered as such: hit/exp cap > crit > mastery > haste.