I disagree. I killed a level 90 as an 85 and it felt great. I was only able to do it because of how the environment was. If it was in a battleground or in front of org, I know I wouldn't have been able to pull it off. It's moments like that that make me always come back to pvp servrs.
If you are full PvP gear and he just dinged and has none that's not even difficult. Yes, gear is that powerful. The gear you obtain from leveling till 90 isn't even much better than DS HC gear.
---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 11:18 AM ----------
Well, you see, Endus here believes "everyone is OK with bullies and getting ganked", that the few people who complain "are just a bunch of whiners who should roll PvE", and the people who are all playing on PvP realm "are all happy and that nobody at all would be interested in a more morally enforced world". That seems to be the main reasoning of him and the Beast "I link my PvE alt and not my PvP main" fellow.
Isn't it ironic how Endus is using PvP servers running on Linux software which exists thanks to a license called the GPL which gives rights on top of copyright yet is more restrictive than BSD license and public domain in terms of giving back source code? 30 years ago a fellow believed, in a world where there was no such thing remotely close to GPL, a middle ground between proprietary and "anything goes" open source software. The GPL was born. Now source code is spread under this, and similar licenses, instead with big multi nationals like Google adopting it.
And there are tons and tons of more examples. Our entire legal system is based on nuances which apply shades of grey in an otherwise unfair black vs white world.
Last edited by mmoc41a7fbf474; 2013-01-18 at 10:20 AM.
Why's everything have to be about skill? It's a game for babies.
No, no. BGs are equal in numbers. That is what world PvP is not, and that's nowhere what I am suggested. BGs have an arbitrary, static map. World PvP can occur anywhere in the world.
Many people don't like the fear of getting ganked or picked on by a bully. Solution: put the bullies together with the people who like getting bullied, together with those who like the "adrenaline rush" (as if you'd be constantly running around with that and then boom you're dead? *shrug*) would be able to play together. I guarantee you, you'd be ganked more during your leveling experience, but you're apparently alright with that. And then you have us who prefer a middle ground with a set of moral rules enforced on our own server.World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.
Bifurcation. I provided an alternative. Why do you keep using fallacies in your reasoning? Don't you have some kind of argument? I also explained why PvE server doesn't cut it.Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.
---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 11:50 AM ----------
Why would it be like that if you have the majority of people on such a CRZ? Isn't the most immerse form of PvP the one where the outcome is not sure before it ended?
I argue twinks are a very, very small minority and follow a similar mindset as the gankers except against a twink one still has a chance to win. Of course there isn't enough of those for BGs. They're a lousy minority who screw it up for the rest. We have more structured PvP in BGs nowadays, with less level disparity, and it actually creates immerse BGs.
Just because something is allowed and possible IRL does not mean you should do it. Example: cheat on your husband/wife.You weren't victimized in that case. You joined a server that explicitly allows that. Yes, they were picking on you, but in a way you'd stated that you were willing to allow.
Because you go to improv club and address specifically that. On a PvP server you're not signing up specifically to meet bullies. Furthermore, nobody actually bullies on such a club, and the level is equal. Nobody is going to completely smash the shit out of you so you die or get in hospital. Its more like tickling.It's like if you join an improv club, and you're doing an "insult slam" back-and-forth. You can't call that "bullying", because it's the rules of the game you agreed to, and it's supposed to be in good fun. If you're not having fun, maybe the improv club isn't for you?
Sometimes you do not know in advance an idea will be a great success but once implemented it works. Do you really think before a new law is implemented the lawmakers look at if the law is widely supported by population? No. Since the amount of people who support in society to be minimal and negligible there is indeed very little support for your version of the PvP realm.You're the one claiming your idea would be a grand success. You have provided precisely zero evidence that it would be or that there is widespread support for your idea.
Most people want to level up instead of twinking. The amount of people who lock their XP is marginal. Your compare is red herring.I have countered with the demonstrated fact that twink BGs crashed and failed due to lack of interest, despite being basically the same in principle as what you're proposing.
I did, but you keep ignoring them, because applying logic and reason in an argument isn't a strong trait of yoursIf you're going to make claims, the burden of proof is on you to support them.
You'd be an utter minority. Furthermore, you and your fellow bullies would have to find a different game to bully people online.The only relevant point is that you've made sweeping statements that "nobody enjoys it", and those statements were false, because *I* enjoy it.
There was no alternative C. I was able to either join the Axis or the Allies and wasn't allowed to stay neutral. Now, I propose this alternative and you keep saying "but you were allowed to join the Allies". I didn't want to, I don't want to, it is very different.No, my logic is that you CHOSE to be born on this planet, KNOWING that it would open you to certain risks. And you had an alternative, where you wouldn't be subject to those risks. Those two capitalized words completely change the circumstances. Being born into certain circumstances implies they were forced upon you, and nothing was forced upon you with your server choice. It was spelled out for you in the server ruleset. You chose it, knowing those consequences, so you don't get to complain about them later on.
No, one is a vulture, and the other one is a rat. The rat has no chance whatsoever to get away.There is no moral issue in play. Nobody is the victim. Sneaking up behind Billy and shooting him in the ass with a paintball gun at school? That's bullying. Sneaking up behind Billy while you're both playing paintball, and shooting him in the ass? That's part of the game. Conflating the two is blatantly dishonest.
In EvE it works because of high sec versus low sec, and in EvE I am totally fine with ganking because the ganker loses as well. In WoW, there is no punishment for ganking. You gave your example on improv club. But there it is punch and be punched. A ganker isn't put in his place though. That's why he keeps doing it, that's why a bully keeps bullying. See, if I'd get bullied IRL, I would punch that person so hard, he'd never do it again. And if he'd still do it again, I'd... lets just say I'd resort to less friendly countermeasures.The principle remained the same, though; people used civilians to try and "bait" enemy players into aggroing them, to force DKs on the enemy. If you applied DKs to player characters, they'd do the same thing, with lowbies; any raid on a city would end up with everyone throwing their lowbies into the mess just to give everyone on the enemy raid extra DKs, punishing them for normal gameplay. It's the root reason why the DK system was removed in the first place; gankers didn't care, and it punished more even-tempered players for engaging in normal world PvP.
Nobody's getting bullied, on a PvP server. That's a false comparison at its core. The equivalent would be that, if you don't like eating meat, you call meat-eaters "murderers". Same type of argument. It's not based on logic or anything rational, it's about using alarming terms to try and force an emotional reaction.
It's all bullshit, and you know it full well. Almost nobody is getting "bullied" on PvP servers. Those few who do can use the harassment policy to deal with it. If the harassment policy doesn't apply, it's not bullying, it's the environment and experience you said you wanted.
Your entire argument is no better than the "meat is murder" types. It's not "bullying", and calling it such is an insult to anyone who's actually been bullied. It's the kind of behaviour you're supposed to expect on a PvP server. You're advised NOT to pick that server type if you don't want to experience that. If you pick a PvP server despite that warning, that's YOUR choice, and if you don't like it, the consequences for making that choice lie on you. Not Blizzard, for allowing it. Not everyone else on that server, who made an informed choice and knew full well what they were getting into, and desired that kind of experience.
The whole "there could be a third server type" thing is pointless. There isn't. And even if there was, that wouldn't make PvP servers pointless or "bad", or the behaviour that goes on there "bullying". Nor is the "I couldn't pick PvE because I like world PvP" thing an argument; PvP servers specifically say they are intended to allow dishonorable unfair PvP activity. It's not "we encourage PvP". It's "we're allowing no-holds-barred PvP". Not only do they not state that they want fair play, they specifically state that it should not be expected. If you want the greater structure for PvP that you're talking about, you are specifically advised to play on a PvE server. Which does allow for world PvP. You can flag yourself. If you only want "fair" fights, you can leave yourself flagged, and if anyone ganks you unfairly, you can just wait a few minutes and unflag and go about your day. PvE servers already provide most of what you desire, with none of the negatives you see in a PvP server. It doesn't matter if they aren't perfect for you; they're obviously closer to what you want than PvP servers, and PvP servers you clearly have a serious issue with. If you continue playing on them regardless, that's your own choice.
Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.
I think we've beaten this dead horse into powder. It might just be time to close the thread since the only person responding to you had little more than personal conjecture and insults. It was ok for awhile when people were actually listening to each other and spouting fact vs opinion, but now heated opinion and insults are the driving force.
I vote for closing the thread and burying this dead horse.
Wrong, because bullying is not covered by law. You keep calling upon the ToS on the PvP server, but if we draw a real-life analogy then bullying on e.g. a high school is perfectly legal. EDIT: This post covers the "bullying isn't law" aspect.
Straw man.It's all bullshit, and you know it full well.
Earlier you said:Almost nobody is getting "bullied" on PvP servers.
You contradict yourself.Nobody's getting bullied, on a PvP server.
You and I know very well harassment policies, both IRL, as well as in WoW, as well as in this specific example, are a nightmare to work with and apply. Millions of children are getting bullied every day on high school, and nobody is doing anything about it. It is the same in a game like WoW, and Blizzard does nothing about it. The low level character can do nothing about it _by_gameplay_.Those few who do can use the harassment policy to deal with it. If the harassment policy doesn't apply, it's not bullying, it's the environment and experience you said you wanted.
Straw man.Your entire argument is no better than the "meat is murder" types.
Which is precisely why I crafted the 3rd realm alternatve. You don't like it, I don't give a rat you don't like. There is no loss for you if this was implemented. On the contrary, there is a gain for you: you would play with bullies, and you could bully. You would experience an increased experience of so-called adrenaline rush which you apparently gain from the possibility of being ganked. Alright, good, then we put you together with the other people who like that. And we put people like me together with people who like unstructured PvP sans level inequality in world PvP. There is a market for the latter, and you know if very well, because otherwise people wouldn't play BGs. They'd all ignore BGs; they'd play on world PvP instead.The whole "there could be a third server type" thing is pointless. There isn't. And even if there was, that wouldn't make PvP servers pointless or "bad", or the behaviour that goes on there "bullying". Nor is the "I couldn't pick PvE because I like world PvP" thing an argument; PvP servers specifically say they are intended to allow dishonorable unfair PvP activity. It's not "we encourage PvP". It's "we're allowing no-holds-barred PvP". Not only do they not state that they want fair play, they specifically state that it should not be expected. If you want the greater structure for PvP that you're talking about
Who are you kidding? I told you 3 times now throughout this thread -which you 3 times did not address- how on a PvE server the flagging is consentual (which I do not agree with) and the flagging allows any level to fight any level (which I do not agree with) which is functionality something neither a PvP server or a PvE server has. Who is being bloody ignorant here, moderator Endus? If a PvE server served my preference I would be smart enough to go play there. Newsflash: it doesn't serve my preference! And it does not serve the preference of those who agree with me, but see the PvP experiment where people would apply morals (those people do exist, in the masses) either.you are specifically advised to play on a PvE server. Which does allow for world PvP. You can flag yourself.
They're far from what I desire.with none of the negatives you see in a PvP server. It doesn't matter if they aren't perfect for you; they're obviously closer to what you want than PvP servers, and PvP servers you clearly have a serious issue with.
Another fallacy. I am not insulting anyone. You are insulting me by keeping telling me that my experience and viewpoint do not matter. They are relevant, and they provide a suitable alternative which would work very well, if implemented. It is a hypothesis for a good reason. If anyone is bullying in this thread, it is you, by continuously replying with fallacies which I have post by post identified, named, and challenged.Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.
---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 04:00 PM ----------
Also, I find it quite ignorant how everyone and their mother assumes I never played on a PvE server. I started playing WoW on a PvE server, and I did not like it exactly for the reasons stated: the inability to engage in world PvP while questing, against someone of roughly my own size. I have also played on a PvP server, and found it the other extreme due to ganking. But I never had issues leveling until CRZ arose. That's how I formed my opinion neither system is perfect, and neither system fills my needs.
The only argument you provided against mine is the one that twink BGs didn't sail. I provided a solid argument against yours, and you choose to ignore it, continuing your previous mantra.
Last edited by mmoc41a7fbf474; 2013-01-18 at 02:55 PM.
You're joking right?!? You've spent god knows how many pages in this thread arrogantly and condescendingly telling anyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong or ignorant. How many people have you actively engaged in arguing with in this thread? Five? Six? And now you are pulling the stop the insults card.
You're trying to bully people in an online forum right now. Stop it, you big bad bully. Trying to stop PVPers from PVPing on PVP servers is kind of like the Nazis did to the Jews. You're basically doing the same thing.
Oh wait. None of the stuff that happens in an online computer game has a lick to do with real life. It is just a game. It's just pixels. I'm a fairly nice decent dude irl, I've put my life on the line to save people I don't know, yet online I just love to murder other people's characters out in the world when they're just running along doing whatever. Relax. Chill out. Let people play games the way they want. You on your server with your rules and me on my server with my rules. Or both on my server with you dead at my feet, if you absolutely must insist. I'm okay with it either way. But you're not a Nazi and I'm not a bully, mmmkay? There, there, does it still hurt? Rub some dirt on it, eat some ice cream, KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON.
He's right though. Blizzard actively encourages all forms of world PVP on PVP servers. If you can't handle that, it's not the place for you to be.
If you want limitations on PVP encounters, I suggest you either move to a PVE server or somehow get the message to Blizzard that they should make a new set of servers with the rules you want them to have. PVP servers are for unrestricted PVP. That includes ganking and "dishonorable" actions.
Except that it oh so clearly is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-bullying_legislation
I haven't addressed it because it's irrelevant to the thread, or the argument you're making with regards to PvP servers. Sure, they COULD make a new server type, but they haven't. So what-ifs about a possible alternative don't really mean anything.Who are you kidding? I told you 3 times now throughout this thread -which you 3 times did not address- how on a PvE server the flagging is consentual (which I do not agree with) and the flagging allows any level to fight any level (which I do not agree with) which is functionality something neither a PvP server or a PvE server has.
The existence of this theoretical server type wouldn't make PvP server rules change at all, and the rest of your argument is that the PvP rule set is objectively bad and harmful. That's why you label it "bullying" and use other weighted terminology. THAT is the argument I'm attacking. I'm ignoring this "third server" stuff because it is entirely irrelevant.
The point is; the PvP server rules are perfectly fine. Nobody is getting bullied because of those rules (or more specifically, the deliberate lack of protection they provide). The only possible "bullying" activities in WoW are already covered, on all server types, by the harassment policy. If you don't like the PvP rule set, don't play on PvP servers. That's as complicated as it gets.
If you'd just been posting that you wished there were a third server type, that would have been fine. The issue is, and always has been, your unwarranted attack on the PvP ruleset and the condescending and insulting phrasing with which you've treated everyone who happens to appreciate it.
Who is being bloody ignorant here, moderator Endus?It's always nice when someone directly contradicts themselves like that, in the same post.Another fallacy. I am not insulting anyone.
If you believe I am bullying someone in an online forum please report such behaviour because it is likely against forum rules and the person performing such behaviour should get reprimanded. But wait, it is a moderator saying it, wouldn't he have banned me already if I was really bullying him as well as others? Yes, he would, but he can't frag me on it because I do nothing wrong barring arguing something he does not agree with. The statement he made is nothing more or less than an appeal to authority as well as a straw man to state such, and a red herring as well because it distracts from the actual issue. I expect more from those who run a place: actual arguments.
Why you bring the Nazi's and Jews into the subject, without explainig the actual compare, is beyond me.
Also, I have already explained various times that a feral one shotting a low level with moonfire can hardly considered combat. Yes, it is combat, for 1 sec, where the outcome was determined at the moment the feral decided to fly down and moonfire the low level.
Dude, there's a massive chasm of difference between debating with people, and insulting them.
Me saying "no, that's wrong" is not an insult. It's a correction. It's part of normal discussion and debate. I'm entitled to have and express my opinions.
Me saying "no, that's wrong, and you're an ignorant stupidhead" would be an insult. Because of the bit in italics. You're free to check back through the thread; I haven't insulted anyone. I've called an argument "bullshit", but that's just a strong way to say "wrong". That's as far as I've gone.
Disagreeing with someone is not insulting to them. Not even a little. It's part of normal discussion. It's what forums like this are for.
Recent development indeed. But wait, before this was implemented, bullying was alright even though it wasn't punishable or prosecuted? Of course not; bullying isn't accepted in society.
You find it irrelevant; I find it very relevant in the context. It'd even stop a lot of the crying and QQ about CRZ.I haven't addressed it because it's irrelevant to the thread, or the argument you're making with regards to PvP servers.
So anywhere you discuss, anything which is a hypothesis, a child of someone's creative mind, an imagination is deemed irrelevant because it does not exist.Sure, they COULD make a new server type, but they haven't. So what-ifs about a possible alternative don't really mean anything.
If you do not like my proposal, you can simply ignore it, and call it right there. You can put me on your ignore list. I can't put you on mine!
Exactly! You would still be able to play on your preferred server. I'm not saying my proposal should change PvP realm type. I am saying it would co-exist.The existence of this theoretical server type wouldn't make PvP server rules change at all
No, not the entire PvP rule set. My proposal is actually very much like a PvP server, with one minor change.and the rest of your argument is that the PvP rule set is objectively bad and harmful.
Why, is anything someone imagines or would like to see changed or implement irrelevant?I'm ignoring this "third server" stuff because it is entirely irrelevant.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ my argument
..but that is exactly what I am doing. I am posting my hypothesis and testing out my argument in various threads. Unfortunately with people like you who keep insisting "they don't like the idea" while it wouldn't affect them and all the red herrings going on, it becomes nearly impossible to discuss it.If you'd just been posting that you wished there were a third server type, that would have been fine. The issue is, and always has been, your unwarranted attack on the PvP ruleset and the condescending and insulting phrasing with which you've treated everyone who happens to appreciate it.
How is that insulting? I'm not insulting you at all.It's always nice when someone directly contradicts themselves like that, in the same post.
Because we're discussing PvP servers. Not your imaginary realm type. In determining whether PvP servers are broken or working as intended, your imaginary realm type is irrelevant.
Calling someone "ignorant" is an insult. How is that not crystal clear?How is that insulting? I'm not insulting you at all.
If you're questing through STV (at the appropriate level) and a level 90 shows up there's no "thrill of getting away" cause you're not going to get away. There's no challenge to it. There's no thrill to it except to the level 90.
There's no logical reason that dishonorable kills or a punishment shouldn't exist for killing lower level players. There's a reason that Blizzard thought it was a good idea to add it in the original iteration of PvP. Them moving away from dishonorable kills wasn't because (OMG PVP MORE INTERESTING) it was sheer laziness in proper implementation to the extent that they've even avoided adding it now under the excuse that "Oh you joined a pvp server so you get what you expect".
Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfangi7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15
See you are doing it again. You are not debating anything with anyone, all your argument boils down to is; "I'm right and you're wrong."
You even go on to explain to me in an incredibly condescending way what an insult is and that I am wrong.
If you believe that someone is wrong (or multiple people in the case) why have you not simply stated your case and left it at that? Why have you continued to argue with multiple people over multiple pages?
I can and have escaped 90s before as a lowbie. It's by no means impossible.
The entire point of PvP servers is unrestricted PvP. Dishonorable kills were added to civilian NPCs, not low-level players, and the goal was to make killing quest providers and such a negative, and it was removed because it led to people avoiding world PvP.There's no logical reason that dishonorable kills or a punishment shouldn't exist for killing lower level players. There's a reason that Blizzard thought it was a good idea to add it in the original iteration of PvP. Them moving away from dishonorable kills wasn't because (OMG PVP MORE INTERESTING) it was sheer laziness in proper implementation to the extent that they've even avoided adding it now under the excuse that "Oh you joined a pvp server so you get what you expect".
If you want some restrictions on PvP, that's what PvE servers are for. PvE servers are somewhat misnamed; they are not intended to be PvE-only. They allow for full PvP, save that they require you to deliberately flag yourself for open world PvP. If you wish there were a different server type with different restrictions, okay, but that doesn't say anything about whether or not PvP servers are working properly.
---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 10:56 AM ----------
Because that's how a forum discussion works. You don't just say your piece and leave. You stick around and continue discussing.
Except my realm-type would be very much like a PvP realm. And it'd fix a large issue players have with current PvP as well as PvE realm.
No, you find it irrelevant, which you're free to find, but I am free to discuss it. Just because you are a moderator doesn't mean you have any authority about someone's opinion. Furthermore it is crystal clear you are not here to discuss or fine tune an idea put forth by someone. Yet, I am very much open to discuss my idea, and for example explain how it'd technical work behind the screen. I gave countless of analogies, and kept the disucussion alive with well put rebuttals. I've been much more of substance than the repeating mantra of "just go to PvE realm" like you kept repeating. Telling someone their opinion is irrelevant, and keeping repeating that, is insulting which isn't something I expect from a moderator. Just ignore them instead. How hard can it be?In determining whether PvP servers are broken or working as intended, your imaginary realm type is irrelevant.