Does MOP have any connection to TBC or WOTLK lore?

[Deleted]

'Butchering' is completely your opinion. We had a starting setting, we had events, we had characters from that starting setting evolve and react to those events.
MoP is the Orcs VS Humans war from 1994's Warcraft 1 evolved to the point where it is now, spilling over into newly discovered territory. This upsets not only the natives but also the land that has peculiar elements to it.

The Sillithid and Aqir were a completely new addition to the warcraft story. The first War of the Shifting Sands was never mentioned in Warcraft3. Same difference, worked out fine, fond memories from classic, etc. etc. etc.

First of all, lets get one thing straight. I was merely answering the guys question is MOP connected to old lore, which was a no. I didn't say MOP's ally vs horde story is bad, I in fact kinda like it.

Secondly, by stating that I think they have butchered classic well written characters from WC3 I mean referring few certain characters. I am well aware that this is just an opinion and probably also neccesary to butcher them like this as we're dealing with an MMo setting instead of RTS. But the characters that were butchered are:

1) Arthas/LK.

Arthass was a badass in WC3. LK was a mastermind who succesfully bamboozled the entire world and the burning legion to achieve his goals. He did this flawlessly. In WOTLK not only do they mindlessly kill both characters, for whom people were attached to and rooting for in WC3, but they also ruin their characters. LK was changed from a mastermind evil into "this ain't ovah bitches". Not only that, but they also completely degrade the story with some shitty dragon and even more terrible spinoff story about some giant lovecraftian squid. Even the epic finale, the ending cinematic was about some two new douchebags derping around instead of focusing on the central character.

2) Illidan. Why did we kill him again?

3) Kael'thas. A guy who was just trying to save his people is suddenly turned into some powerhungry crazy evil character and then demoted into a joke.

4) Tyrande. Completely tossed aside untill now where her character is completely different again. In WC3 she commands the last line of defense agains the burning legions attack. In Wow she derps around some anime escapee king.

5) Malfurion. The most powerful good guy from WC3 who was crucial in taking Archimonde down and stopping Illidan was only introduced in Cata and did..... what? Pat Thrall in the back a little and then disappear?

6) Kel'thuzad. Lich kings powerful servant and the necromancer who summoned the legion in the world gets turned into "MUAAHAHAHAHAHHA I HAZ A CAT".

But like I said, MMO's need loot pinatas, so it's an awful storytelling setting.

[Granyala]

Not much.

MoP is supposed to be a brief pause in the main story line, that's why there are only distant ties to it.

Personally, I like it. After LK (World = doomed) and Cata (World = doomed²) it's nice to get a brief respite. Don't worry, Warcraft will get doomy and gloomy again soon enough.

Besides, I'm curious to see what they make of the Alli/Horde conflict and how it's resolved / frozen in the end.

3) Kael'thas. A guy who was just trying to save his people is suddenly turned into some powerhungry crazy evil character and then demoted into a joke.

While I adore the encounter, I agree. It was sad to see him go nuts. But I guess that's what you get for dabbling with Fel enegies too much.
Same goes for Illidan, though I didn't really understand that one. He still was an enemy of the legion, but obviously too unstable to have around?

[Yig]

Anyone with a passing interest in the lore that wasn't a jaded hipster too cool for whatever they chose to ignore knew the Pandaren were out there in a far away land that was either undiscovered or hidden in some way. They were one of the main races of the D20 table top game and their homeland was given detailed descriptions, going back to the first year WOW was even released.

If you think they really came out of nowhere, you were just being stubborn and pretending they didn't exist in the first place.

[Grim32]

First of all, lets get one thing straight. I was merely answering the guys question is MOP connected to old lore, which was a no. I didn't say MOP's ally vs horde story is bad, I in fact kinda like it.

Secondly, by stating that I think they have butchered classic well written characters from WC3 I mean referring few certain characters. I am well aware that this is just an opinion and probably also neccesary to butcher them like this as we're dealing with an MMo setting instead of RTS. But the characters that were butchered are:

1) Arthas/LK.

Arthass was a badass in WC3. LK was a mastermind who succesfully bamboozled the entire world and the burning legion to achieve his goals. He did this flawlessly. In WOTLK not only do they mindlessly kill both characters, for whom people were attached to and rooting for in WC3, but they also ruin their characters. LK was changed from a mastermind evil into "this ain't ovah bitches". Not only that, but they also completely degrade the story with some shitty dragon and even more terrible spinoff story about some giant lovecraftian squid. Even the epic finale, the ending cinematic was about some two new douchebags derping around instead of focusing on the central character.

2) Illidan. Why did we kill him again?

3) Kael'thas. A guy who was just trying to save his people is suddenly turned into some powerhungry crazy evil character and then demoted into a joke.

4) Tyrande. Completely tossed aside untill now where her character is completely different again. In WC3 she commands the last line of defense agains the burning legions attack. In Wow she derps around some anime escapee king.

5) Malfurion. The most powerful good guy from WC3 who was crucial in taking Archimonde down and stopping Illidan was only introduced in Cata and did..... what? Pat Thrall in the back a little and then disappear?

6) Kel'thuzad. Lich kings powerful servant and the necromancer who summoned the legion in the world gets turned into "MUAAHAHAHAHAHHA I HAZ A CAT".

But like I said, MMO's need loot pinatas, so it's an awful storytelling setting.

So let me guess this right - judging from you listing the main bosses we have fought in previous expansions. You would rather we not kill off main characters because they are 'loot pinatas'. The story is fine, some people like it, some people don't. Personally I do like it and if I have never understood what is going on, I search the lore. Why am I killing X? Why is Y important?
It's almost as if you went through post WC3, without reading quest text and just assumed we were fighting these bosses because we can...

-Grim

[Deleted]

So let me guess this right - judging from you listing the main bosses we have fought in previous expansions. You would rather we not kill off main characters because they are 'loot pinatas'. The story is fine, some people like it, some people don't. Personally I do like it and if I have never understood what is going on, I search the lore. Why am I killing X? Why is Y important?
It's almost as if you went through post WC3, without reading quest text and just assumed we were fighting these bosses because we can...

-Grim

Maybe reread the second paragraph really carefully with some thought this time.

[Immitis]

Just a question...does anything in MOP have any connection to TBC or WOTLK lore?

It took me ages to figure out the storyline for TBC/WOTLK (since I never played any previous warcraft games)

Now with Cataclysm I had NFI what was going on story wise.

Now with MOP im even more confused with the story - Does it have ANY connection whatsoever to TBC/WOTLK lore?

the lore for tbc is an abomination that should never be spoken of. however chen was pretty good friends with rexxar and the sha and mantid are both related to the old gods, one of the old gods showed up in vanilla and one showed up in wrath (cthun and yogg'saron) the zandalari showed up in both vanilla and wrath to stop the zul'gurub guys and the drakkari.

but other then those most of the pandaren lore is either brand new or heavily changed and retrofitted from the rpg books to fit current lore

[huth]

In my opinion, the story is supposed to evolve, from the beginning to the end. I personally hate stories/movies/games that change their stories completely at some point.

They do. Then, Blizzard starts a new story. You're looking a multiple, independent stories, not one long WoW story.
WoW is a book of short stories, not a big novel.

[KrazyK923]

Nope. TBC and Wotlk fed on the good stuff made for WC3. Mop is all new Wow crap.

Other than Chen Stormstout, a joke sidekick hero with no voice acting introduced mainly for multiplayer gaming in the orc mini campaign.

Wha---err---uhh--

I am...

what?

How many times do we have to debunk that ridiculous Chen Stormstout/Pandaren argument?

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 11:00 AM ----------

First of all, lets get one thing straight. I was merely answering the guys question is MOP connected to old lore ((And adding in childish insults while at it)), which was a no. I didn't say MOP's ally vs horde story is bad, I in fact kinda like it.

Secondly, by stating that I think they have butchered classic well written characters from WC3 I mean referring few certain characters. I am well aware that this is just an opinion and probably also neccesary to butcher them like this as we're dealing with an MMo setting instead of RTS. But the characters that were butchered are:

1) Arthas/LK.

Arthass was a badass in WC3((No, he was a whiney douchebag prince who threw a tantrum when somebody didn't listen to him who became a whiney douchebag Death Knight that did nothing but follow the orders of whoever was cashing his paychecks. First Tichondrius/Kel'Thuzad, then the Lich King, then Anub'arak/the Lich King. Arthas complains the entirety of Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne whenever things don't go his way. Kel'thuzad escapes? Complains. Uther refuses to murder a town? Complains and throws a fit. His father recalls his mission? Complains and throws a fit. Sylvanas blocks his entry into Quel'thalas? Complains. Scourge accomplishes their initial mission and he's sidelined? He complains. The Dreadlords stage a coup? He complains. His power depletes while Illidan attacks the Lich King? He fucking complains.)). LK was a mastermind who succesfully bamboozled the entire world and the burning legion to achieve his goals. He did this flawlessly((Except the multiple times Kil'Jaeden gets Illidan to kill him because they knew what he was doing)). In WOTLK not only do they mindlessly kill both characters ((You mean, making them the final boss of an entire expansion? I'm not seeing where that is 'mindless.')), for whom people were attached to and rooting for in WC3((If by "rooting" you mean "People recognized him because Warcraft 3 is where the Warcraft franchise took off and Arthas happened to be one of the few main characters" then yes, "rooting.")), but they also ruin their characters. LK was changed from a mastermind evil into "this ain't ovah bitches"((You do realize that Arthas Lich King and Ner'zhul Lich King are two different people, right? Arthas, inside the mind of the Lich King "kills"/banishes Ner'zhul's presence and what we see in Wrath is completely Arthas. Arthas Lich King seems very much like Arthas Death Knight, just that his power grew so he could accomplish things on his own rather than piggyback on someone else and complain along the way.)). Not only that, but they also completely degrade the story with some shitty dragon and even more terrible spinoff story about some giant lovecraftian squid.((I'm sorry you didn't understand Old God lore--despite the fact that it was introduced as far back as Frozen Throne, and referenced in several novels pre-WoW launch. Sucks for you)) Even the epic finale, the ending cinematic was about some two new douchebags derping around instead of focusing on the central character.((You mean...after he died, right? We were supposed to watch his dead corpse?))

2) Illidan. Why did we kill him again? ((Because in his quest to stop the Legion/gain power, he pissed off a lot of people, like he has a tendency of doing?))

3) Kael'thas. A guy who was just trying to save his people is suddenly turned into some powerhungry crazy evil character and then demoted into a joke. ((You DID play Frozen Throne, right? Where this already started to happened? The seeds for what he does in BC were planted way back in Frozen Throne))

4) Tyrande. Completely tossed aside untill now where her character is completely different again. In WC3 she commands the last line of defense agains the burning legions attack. In Wow she derps around some anime escapee king. ((This is the only one I agree with -- at least about Tyrande. I like Varian.))

5) Malfurion. The most powerful good guy from WC3 who was crucial in taking Archimonde down and stopping Illidan was only introduced in Cata and did..... what? Pat Thrall in the back a little and then disappear? ((Malfurion suffers from Knaak-itis, where his character has gained such power that introducing him in the story would literally break it because of how ridiculous his power level has become. See "Stormrage" where he essentially becomes Goku. Note, this doesn't happen anywhere in WoW. Blizzard gets around this with Thrall by making him either incapacitated/busy (Having to stabilize the Maelstrom, then being split into 4 spiritual pieces) or needing a greater power source (Having to get the Dragon soul) ))

6) Kel'thuzad. Lich kings powerful servant and the necromancer who summoned the legion in the world gets turned into "MUAAHAHAHAHAHHA I HAZ A CAT". ((You mean...instead of being Arthas' suitor waiting for him in Lordaeron doing a whole absolutely nothing for 1/2 of his existence in the lore? I also like how you ignore the fact that Kel'thuzad invades several major cities/areas/zones in Warcraft when Naxxramas attacks and instead focus on the one easter egg pop culture reference.))

But like I said, MMO's need loot pinatas, so it's an awful storytelling setting.((I am not sure why you keep connecting these two points like they are related. MoP has some awesome storytelling, especially with the Mantid and the Sha. Most of the expansion successfully told the story of what was happening fairly well. Vanilla was the only one where it was jumbled and that was because there WAS no cohesive storyline to Vanilla.))

Had some notes for you.

Same goes for Illidan, though I didn't really understand that one. He still was an enemy of the legion, but obviously too unstable to have around?

It was essentially what he's done before but on a larger scale. In his effort to hide/prepare for Kil'jaeden/The Burning Legion to come after him (Which it was clear they were doing), he was pretty drastically adversely affecting Outland and everyone who lived in it. And not only did he not care, but he was actively hostile to people trying to get him to stop. He may not have been mustache-twirling evil like the Lich King or Deathwing was, but he was morally grey enough that he was too dangerous to be left alive. Plus it was hinted/subtly stated that he was at least partially crazy.

[Kathranis]

I think shuubi would have preferred an MMORPG where you play a guy who is playing Warcraft III, and the purpose of the game is to just play Warcraft III over and over again with nothing ever changing.

[eillas]

Not only that, but they also completely degrade the story with some shitty dragon and even more terrible spinoff story about some giant lovecraftian squid.

You apparently have never read day of the dragon, or any of the war of the ancient books.
Heres a bit on Deathwing, hes the former aspect of earth, who turned into the aspect of death/chaos.

Now for timeline

In the war of the ancients he trick 4 of the most powerful and wisest of all dragons.
His betrayal wiped out almost all the Blue dragonflight to brink of extinction. This action brought madness to Malygos, and eventually the madness consumed him.
Back then this was the age of the Dragon. This was when they were at their peak, and height of power. When this act was finished, the age of the dragons ended, and they could not recover.
An entire dragon army was gathered during this war, and his action caused the army to go into hiding.

Day of the Dragon.

While Onyxia was able to control varian and bolvar, and Nefarian controls the blackrock orcs. Deathwing was out in human form controlling most of Lordaeron. The Kirin tor had suspicions, but Deathwing had strong control over Lordaeron.
The other flights were still recovering to the point that they were rarely seen. The strongest of them all were in dreams hiding or in their lairs brooding.

In Cataclysm:
He managed to shatter the entire world of Azeroth. Which led to resources diminishing, and the current war breaking out.


Tldr:
He may have not been in your face from warcraft 3 but his presence was always felt in some form.

[Berri]

Warlocks going back to BT, and the Sha are Old-God related - there seem to be some recurring themes that might get relevant to each other in the future.

[Deleted]

You apparently have never read day of the dragon, or any of the war of the ancient books.

No I play a video game. I don't want to read books to follow what's going on.

Kathranis: Read the second paragraph.

And as for Krazyk: Same thing.

Also, you should read that second paragraph too. I could have predicted that response nearly word to word though as every time someone dares to point out that Arthas was the main character of WC3 or that WC3 in general had a better storyline than wow, some goober jumps in to babble about book and how great these giant lovecraftian squids are.

[Beefhammer]

Not much.

MoP is supposed to be a brief pause in the main story line, that's why there are only distant ties to it.

Personally, I like it. After LK (World = doomed) and Cata (World = doomed²) it's nice to get a brief respite. Don't worry, Warcraft will get doomy and gloomy again soon enough.

Besides, I'm curious to see what they make of the Alli/Horde conflict and how it's resolved / frozen in the end.


While I adore the encounter, I agree. It was sad to see him go nuts. But I guess that's what you get for dabbling with Fel enegies too much.
Same goes for Illidan, though I didn't really understand that one. He still was an enemy of the legion, but obviously too unstable to have around?

Where do you even get the idea this is a brief pause in the main story line? This mists being lifted made a new land available to harvest resources for the war between the Horde and Alliance. Fortunately they find the island inhabited by many creatures many of then intelligent especially the Pandarens. The Pandarens through the course of this expansion will help the leaders of each faction to work together for the betterment of this world moving forward and possibly end the war between the two.

This is no pause, this is a major stepping stone in pushing the story and lore forward for bigger things. I understand people may hate MoP for numerous reasons, but this is major plot point for lore.

[KrazyK923]

Also, you should read that second paragraph too. I could have predicted that response nearly word to word though as every time someone dares to point out that Arthas was the main character of WC3 or that WC3 in general had a better storyline than wow, some goober jumps in to babble about book and how great these giant lovecraftian squids are.

I am not sure where I said how great "lovecraftian squids are."

I'm glad you ignored the entire part about Arthas being a whiney douchebag.

Well at least now I know I can end my participation in this thread since you're not interested in a conversation about the Lore. Not really, anyway. You more just want to bash the shit out of WoW and are choosing the lore as the vehicle this time.

*yawn*

[Totle]

The main tipping point for the war in Cataclysm was the Wrathgate events during WotLK. This lead to the battle of Undercity, mistrust between the factions, and the first hard interaction between Varian and the Horde. After this, while they were suppose to be at a "truce" during the Ulduar patch vid, it is evident that Varian is still bothered by what happened. This escalates in the Trial of the Crusader, finally culminating with the Gunship battle.

From there, Thrall has to leave for Cata, and he puts Garrosh in charge who is hostile to Varian. War breaks out, and this leads us to the start of MoP.

[kynthrus]

They are all connected by a timeline obviously, therefore the lore is all connected....

[eillas]

No I play a video game. I don't want to read books to follow what's going on.

Kathranis: Read the second paragraph.

And as for Krazyk: Same thing.

Also, you should read that second paragraph too. I could have predicted that response nearly word to word though as every time someone dares to point out that Arthas was the main character of WC3 or that WC3 in general had a better storyline than wow, some goober jumps in to babble about book and how great these giant lovecraftian squids are.

And that's why you fail. If you don't even take the time to wowpedia something, then you have no right to complain.

Edit: MMORPG have limits in story telling, and they use books to help tell stories that gameplay wise may not be doable. If you simply cannot take some time to do some research on a Wikipedia. Citation http://www.wowpedia.org/Deathwing I would love if all the books were in the game playable, but sometimes that's not realistic. You got to put some effort in.

[AbalDarkwind]

1) Arthas/LK.

Arthass was a badass in WC3. LK was a mastermind who succesfully bamboozled the entire world and the burning legion to achieve his goals. He did this flawlessly. In WOTLK not only do they mindlessly kill both characters, for whom people were attached to and rooting for in WC3, but they also ruin their characters. LK was changed from a mastermind evil into "this ain't ovah bitches". Not only that, but they also completely degrade the story with some shitty dragon and even more terrible spinoff story about some giant lovecraftian squid. Even the epic finale, the ending cinematic was about some two new douchebags derping around instead of focusing on the central character.

You realize that all that taunting Arthas did during the main storyline culminates in him wiping your entire raid to raise you to become his personal vanguard, completely under his control? The only reason Arthas lost was because he misjudged the power of the Light which, considering it did not help him with the culling of Stratholm or his hunt for Mal'ganis, made vast amounts of sense. I guess you just did not pay attention.

2) Illidan. Why did we kill him again?

He attacked Shattrath and the Naaru. The entire point of the Scyers was that they were Illidan's army against Shattrath. When they reached the gates, they surrendered to A'dal, joined the Sha'tari and started working against Illidan.

3) Kael'thas. A guy who was just trying to save his people is suddenly turned into some powerhungry crazy evil character and then demoted into a joke.

He was corrupted by Fel magic just like every other character, outside of the players, who comes in contact with it.

4) Tyrande. Completely tossed aside untill now where her character is completely different again. In WC3 she commands the last line of defense agains the burning legions attack. In Wow she derps around some anime escapee king.

I'll give you Tyrande. CDev hasn't known what to do with Tyrande since Warcraft III.

5) Malfurion. The most powerful good guy from WC3 who was crucial in taking Archimonde down and stopping Illidan was only introduced in Cata and did..... what? Pat Thrall in the back a little and then disappear?

I guess you never did heroic Ragnaros where Malfurion, Cenarius, and Hamuul Runetotem show up to save your ass when he gets to full power and climbs out of his lava pit.

6) Kel'thuzad. Lich kings powerful servant and the necromancer who summoned the legion in the world gets turned into "MUAAHAHAHAHAHHA I HAZ A CAT".

He was characterized almost identically in WoW as he was in WC3. In both games, he was the Lich King's top aide. In WoW, Naxxramas assaults both the Eastern Plaguelands and the Dragonblight.

Also, you should read that second paragraph too. I could have predicted that response nearly word to word though as every time someone dares to point out that Arthas was the main character of WC3 or that WC3 in general had a better storyline than wow, some goober jumps in to babble about book and how great these giant lovecraftian squids are.

Say what you will about them being Lovecraftian squids, but I have yet to see a villain in WoW that has had the style and personality that Yogg-Saron had.

[Karnudge]

Arthas was a whiny little bitch in WC3, but the LK aka Ner'zhul who had been around much longer and dealt with the forces of the legion for bit, HE WAS THE CRAFTY ONE, and the lore of what the LK did before he even knew about Arthas is the only part of Wrath that actually drew me in (see War of the spider/history of the orcs).

The old gods have never been handled quite right....ya know for technically being the oldest and biggest big bad ever to touch Azeroth (they were technically there before the legion attacked and are the the influence behind deathwing and the nightmare (more on this further). It was always fun fighting twilight cultists!

We killed Illidan for a couple reasons: 1, he pissed off EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.....of warcraft. 2, he was creating a new army of fel orcs using Maggy's blood (remember the red guys from Hellfire that would rape you at 58?) to fight against the legion and everyone else who stood in his way- he has to go.

Kael'thas, like Illidan, sought power too much. The blood elves have this magic addiction thing going on, and after he got corrupted by Sargeras...forget about it. I loved Magister's Terrace.

Tyrande - yeah no one has refuted this point and neither will I. Freakin awful. I hate what they did to her voice too. Apparently 10,000 years has only made her dumber and less patient.

Malfurion - Yes, he was in Firelands....which in my opinion was much more of an OMG raid than deathwing, yes if you leveled a new character in Cata you would run into him, and yes he has grown to over 9000 power level....but he really deserves a hell of a lot more stage time than he's been given. It seems like the people behind vanilla were preparing for him to bust back from the emerald dream and start kicking ass (remember fighting Eranikus in Moonglade?). Thrall is cool, and Cata was a big shaman expansion, but then I expect an emerald dream expansion where Malfurion is god and we have to finish exterminating the nightmare (which they think is the old god's presence in Azeroth (combined with Xavius being turned into a tree -whoops (see War of the Ancients/Stormrage). And if they corrupt Malfurion and we have to kill him....I'm gonna cry.

Kel'thuzad was a little disappointing because he was a masterful tactician but meh I got over it.

AS FOR PANDAS!!! I remember reading a long time ago about a land in WoW that was undiscovered and uncharted, but never read anything about Kung Fu Pandas....so no, this expac is meant to focus you on the Alliance/Horde conflict because those were the good old days of killing other players. I personally find the Sha to be dumb...unless they get tied to the old gods which may save the storyline...and I also believe that all of the Panda specs are redundant and boring (even if they do get the new cooler looking animations).

[nnelson54]

Now with Cataclysm I had NFI what was going on story wise.

While Deathwing is one of the original Warcraft characters and was from the single player games, even if you haven't played them the story of Cataclysm had been building up since release. Every expansion included the Black Dragonflight and Deathwing's experiments.