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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I look at it as, males and females were clearly designed to mate. Whether you subscribe to God or nature, it is a fact. If every single person in the world was straight, there would be no issue. If every single person in the world was gay, barring out artificial insemination (which is not natural) our species would die out within a couple generations. I need no further reason to see it as unnatural or wrong. Am I suggesting we should lock people up who are gay, no, but I see no reason for society to support it. But of course, I will never understand the liberal ideals of tolerance of everything over standards.
    I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly shallow view that fails on multiple levels of logic. Humans are social animals, we function as a society. What is normal has to be defined in terms of the whole society, and not on an individual basis. Homosexuality and bisexuality has been well attested to since the dawn of human civilisation. It is normal for a minority of humans to be primarily attracted to members of the same sex. It is normal for most humans to be capable of some level of sexual/romantic attraction to a member of the same sex.

    You cannot denounce a minority as abnormal based on a hypothetical situation that is not true, was not true, and will not be true (if everyone was gay).


    But of course, I will never understand the liberal ideals of tolerance of everything over standards.
    This is incredibly offensive. Who are you to judge gays and lesbians? They aren't a lower standard than you.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Being gay is very well supported in anthropology.

    A person that is not interested in having a child themselves makes a perfect person to help raise kids. Humans have ALWAYS been about quality over quantity when it comes to kids, so having more people that would be able to invest in a group's children without contributing to the amount of kids is hugely beneficial.

    The natural balance would be many hetero people and few homo people... which is just about what it is. It's something that's been documented in damn near every society, but western societies place a HUGE stigma on it as being unnatural, which non-western cultures tended to assign a third (or fourth, or fifth) gender and leave it be.
    I won't disagree, except to say that it doesn't require being gay to not want kids. Plenty of straight people don't, so that's hardly relevant.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I won't disagree, except to say that it doesn't require being gay to not want kids. Plenty of straight people don't, so that's hardly relevant.
    The issue here arises with straight people that do not want children, but still want to fuck. They can still create children, despite all precautions. Many refuse to use those precautions as well. They create, literally, unwanted children that tend to become very disruptive members of society.

    Homosexual couples do not carry this risk.

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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I won't disagree, except to say that it doesn't require being gay to not want kids. Plenty of straight people don't, so that's hardly relevant.
    Evolution doesn't work on "well, people don't want to do this, so let's not do this". Especially not when most of our core was being decided and you had kids or you died from not having kids when you were older. The luxury of not wanting to have kids AND not having kids is a very modern thing.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I won't disagree, except to say that it doesn't require being gay to not want kids. Plenty of straight people don't, so that's hardly relevant.
    But homosexual couples provide a mechanism to take care of surplus children without possibly creating more. There, natural and legitimate, and should be fully supported under the Equal Protection clause.

    It's not like evolution could take condoms into account.

  6. #146
    And this right here is why I detest arguing against liberals and rarely bother. ANYTHING you say involving a standard is twisted into discrimination. Then if you point out how they are tolerant of every value except conservative values, back to the discrimination comments. I will leave you all to it. The way the country is headed, I have no doubt all states will be forced to accept gay marriages whether they want to or not anyway.

  7. #147
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    Honestly, "Straight" people shouldn't even be considered married unless they realize what the word is supposed to mean. Marriage is when 2 people become 1 in gods eyes and then walk a spiritual path as a unit.

    People getting married left and right these days make a joke of the entire thing. Hell I'd almost be willing to bet a solid block of the people who get "married" only do it because it's the next step up from boyfriend / girlfriend.

    Gay people should be allowed to get "married" if they also want to walk a spiritual path towards god. If they don't then they have no more right to get married than your average joe.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    And this right here is why I detest arguing against liberals and rarely bother. ANYTHING you say involving a standard is twisted into discrimination. Then if you point out how they are tolerant of every value except conservative values, back to the discrimination comments. I will leave you all to it. The way the country is headed, I have no doubt all states will be forced to accept gay marriages whether they want to or not anyway.
    o.O Here I thought we were having a decent debate. I don't think I even used the word standard or discrimination, either

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    And this right here is why I detest arguing against liberals and rarely bother. ANYTHING you say involving a standard is twisted into discrimination. Then if you point out how they are tolerant of every value except conservative values, back to the discrimination comments. I will leave you all to it. The way the country is headed, I have no doubt all states will be forced to accept gay marriages whether they want to or not anyway.
    You can call a spade a spade, conservative values have been built since the 80s on intolerance, but when the pendulum swings the other way and we have evidence to support our side of the argument--documented, scientific proof--you want to pull the discrimination card.

    For the record, I'm a registered Independent and stand left of center. It's the victimization ploy the conservatives have been playing since 2008 that has pushed me further and further left.

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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    And this right here is why I detest arguing against liberals and rarely bother. ANYTHING you say involving a standard is twisted into discrimination.
    Then don't say shit like tolerating homosexuality is disregarding standards.

    What standards?


    Then if you point out how they are tolerant of every value except conservative values
    There is no reason to tolerate intolerance. Nor are they "conservative values".

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 09:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    o.O Here I thought we were having a decent debate. I don't think I even used the word standard or discrimination, either
    It was most likely directed at me complaining about him saying that tolerating gays disregards standards. I didn't say it discrimination though either.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    o.O Here I thought we were having a decent debate. I don't think I even used the word standard or discrimination, either
    Sorry, I'm not singling you out. It's not you, or any one person (not even you Semaphore, much as I utterly disagree with you.) It just feels like a losing battle overall haha. Not just this thread, all of it. It's difficult to put into words why I have these "outdated" values, and all the while I'm getting picked apart by things that, even though I don't agree with at all, I can't really refute because the ball has already started rolling. I consider myself a very moral person, and I can be friends with anybody, including gays, but when arguing ideals I'm often trashed by liberals as being scum. It just gets old, but pay me no mind. I've just had a bad day haha.

  12. #152
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
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    Let homosexuals have their marriages.

    The times they are a changin', deal with it or go live in Montana in a reserve for conservatives.

  13. #153
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    I run into trouble here on a personal level though you'll see my position in my above post is one of neutral ground w/ sep of church and state.

    I tend to disagree that gay people should get married. I regard it as a flaw in genetic makeup. After all as animals we're wired to procreate and otherwise advance the species. That's not to say gay members don't contribute to society, those are simply the thoughts on the forefront of my mind when the topic comes up.

    I would however never vote against gay marriage. Despite my opposition to this subsection of the species. And as much as my previous post dictates i'd like a return to traditional non douche-bag marriage I still wouldn't vote against them getting married.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I tend to disagree that gay people should get married. I regard it as a flaw in genetic makeup. After all as animals we're wired to procreate and otherwise advance the species.
    That's an extremely over simplistic view. Humans as a species have recreational sex for purposes other than recreation. We advance the species by forming romantically based social bonds even when no reproduction is involved. That doesn't mean it's a genetic flaw whatsoever.

  15. #155
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    That's an extremely over simplistic view. Humans as a species have recreational sex for purposes other than recreation. We advance the species by forming romantically based social bonds even when no reproduction is involved. That doesn't mean it's a genetic flaw whatsoever.
    Oh no doubt it's a gross over-simplification. I was simply trying to illustrate some thoughts on the subject. And that I disagree, but wouldn't dream of voting for inequality.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I tend to disagree that gay people should get married. I regard it as a flaw in genetic makeup. After all as animals we're wired to procreate and otherwise advance the species. That's not to say gay members don't contribute to society, those are simply the thoughts on the forefront of my mind when the topic comes up.
    Humans have sex they way they do, and difficulty getting pregnant, to strengthen family bonds/ keep men around to raise kids, actually. It works the same whether or not there's a kid around - if x will offer you sex you'll stay with them, which increases the GROUP'S survival rate of children. evolution doesn't give a shit about individual children or children from individuals, just that some will survive to pass on their genes.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Honestly, "Straight" people shouldn't even be considered married unless they realize what the word is supposed to mean. Marriage is when 2 people become 1 in gods eyes and then walk a spiritual path as a unit.

    People getting married left and right these days make a joke of the entire thing. Hell I'd almost be willing to bet a solid block of the people who get "married" only do it because it's the next step up from boyfriend / girlfriend.

    Gay people should be allowed to get "married" if they also want to walk a spiritual path towards god. If they don't then they have no more right to get married than your average joe.
    That is the Christian traditional marriage, true, but not that of many other religions, nor is it the standard of a modern Civil marriage.

    "Marriage" is just a word. It has many meanings, depending on who is using it, and in what context.

    I'm glad you'd never vote against gay marriage, as you state in your later posts, but the sooner you realize the Christian ideal of marriage is far from the only one, and approach it from that viewpoint, you'll realize that this is a non-issue.

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  18. #158
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    It is just a word true. You'll have to forgive 23 years of my lifestyle, for the definition of marriage

    I'm frankly not even sure if it makes me a hypocrite that I disagree, and agree. But I think i can agree it's a non issue as far as the nation is concerned. Just like a patch in wow, people will disagree, but eventually it'll heal over. Whilst everyone still maintains a personal opinion
    Last edited by prwraith; 2012-12-08 at 09:47 AM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    It is just a word true. You'll have to forgive 23 years of my lifestyle, for the definition of marriage

    I'm frankly not even sure if it makes me a hypocrite that I disagree, and agree. But I think i can agree it's a non issue as far as the nation is concerned. Just like a patch in wow, people will disagree, but eventually it'll heal over. Whilst everyone still maintains a personal opinion
    And I respect your opinion, especially since it's clear you feel no hate towards, nor do you look down on, those that disagree/want this. You simply have your feelings on what marriage should be, and, Biblically speaking, you would be correct. The real world just doesn't mesh with the Biblical ideal. If the government had never gotten into marriage, with the special rights afforded married couples, this would also not be an issue.

    The whole marriage debate is, and should remain, a civil issue so long as the government affords rights to married couples. Each church, then, can decide to accept, or continue to deny spiritual rather than civil marriage to gay members as they so choose.

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  20. #160
    I-I'm just going to leave this right here, it's on-topic.

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