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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    If welfare epics weren't present in the game than people wouldn't be complaining about farming 7 dailies for a week for a few epics.
    Seriously, enough of that BS talk. "Welfare epics" ... really, You lot classifying something as a welfare item because it did not take your level of dedication to acquire is obscenely ludicrous. Blizzard does not mail people "Epix" simply for logging in, they do in fact take some form of "work" no matter how trivial to most people to get. Be it through dailies, dungeons, or actual raids, I don't care how "Challenging" it is. If a person has to spend any effort what so ever, it is an "Earned" item and not some "welfare" gift in the mail. :/
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Have you seen my posts over the past few days? You should be asking yourself why I'm alive, not why I don't have friends.
    I speak my mind, I don't sugar coat it and I don't read replies because most of the time it's someone who apparently "got their feelings hurt".

  2. #42
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    I would personally enjoy a skill based MMO that was designed from the ground up to be challenging, but most people would not. Most people who play MMOs are average in skill level, and a skill based MMO either requires A: people to be exceptional at video games or B: the game's skill cap to be low enough that most of the people playing it can succeed. I would not play this type of game simply because it wouldn't have enough of a thriving community to allow its online world to feel alive. I don't believe a difficult "skill only" MMO is commercially viable because there aren't enough people who truly enjoy difficulty.

    I think multiple difficulty settings is the easiest way to appease every type of player while still keeping a competitive community alive. As long as each type of player isn't forced to accommodate the other, I think an MMO has a good shot at success.
    Last edited by Letmesleep; 2012-12-09 at 12:27 PM.

  3. #43
    Pandaren Monk GeordieMagpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    No, because they won't exist ever again now because MMO's main demographic are now "casuals" and they quote and quote don't have enough time to get better.

    Actually, instead of calling them casuals, they should be called lazy stupid entitled morons, because that's exactly what they are.
    ...I'm a casual because I play the game whenever I can, try to improve whenever I can and always read up on the latest news..BUT I can't dedicate all my time to a game because I have real life issues, studies, and friends, However I don't QQ on the forums and try to improve and get better raiding partners... . So does that make me a "'lazy stupid entitled morons, because that's exactly what they are" Don't generalize 1 person for everyone, ..god knows what kind of insults could be waiting for elitists.


    However, for the topic's sake, yeah I suppose I would, if it was fun.
    Howay the lads!

  4. #44
    Yes, I would.

    Screw pvp gear.
    Lv30 (Warframe) - Volt - Grakata - Lex Prime - Dragon Nikana -
    Lv40 (Firefall) - Dragonfly - Biotech - Mammoth - Arsenal - Nighthawk - Raptor - Recon - Tigerclaw - Electron -
    Lv60 (Neverwinter) - Rogue - Fighter - Wizard - Guardian - Cleric -

  5. #45
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    So kinda a game from SAO?



    If you are watching this anime you kinda already know how the system works in season 2.

    ALfheim Online:

    Instead of the level system that SAO emphasized, ALO pursues skill development and encourages killing other players.

  6. #46
    Would you play an entirely skill-based MMO?
    No. MMOs - or games in general - don't fascinate me to a degree that would justify that kind of effort and time investment. It's just gaming. Got other things to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1
    You know when men aren't listening to you and they have erect penises whilst looking up to the sky thinking of multiple sex positions?

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I think multiple difficulty settings is the easiest way to appease every type of player while still keeping a competitive community alive. As long as each type of player isn't forced to accommodate the other, I think an MMO has a good shot at success.
    Stripping the gear out wouldn't change the basic idea of multiple difficulty settings. All gear does is let you slide by on lower-quality performance in areas you would otherwise get stomped. Hence also why the best players push very difficult content while basically totally undergeared.

    The basic formula would not have to change one bit, all that would change is the way the carrot is dangled.

    Someone earlier mentioned they would miss choosing between gearing 'defensively' and 'offensively' as an example. I think that also, there's room for stat manipulation in a 'skill-based' system. The idea though is that everyone is on even footing with that — your performance is not based on fortune/patience with drops or grinds, but just how you chose to allocate this-or-that distribution (similar to Guild Wars 1 and its attribute points, I guess)

    Really, all it would be doing is shortcutting the middleman of time-inflation caused by tedious character-building. Some see that tedium as 'rewarding', though, so it's not a cut-and-dry decision. I think at some point a developer knows they're always alienating some demographic.

    That said, grinding and building is a huge time-occupier in MMOs. Cutting that out means subbing in more "real" things to do or otherwise keep people interested, occupied, and logging in. That is probably where the difficulty of such a grind/gear-free design really sets in.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    No. MMOs - or games in general - don't fascinate me to a degree that would justify that kind of effort and time investment. It's just gaming. Got other things to do.
    Skill based MMO is the kind where you don't have to grind your heart out to have a shot at doing something in the game ... it should save your time focusing on what's fun, not on keeping you in the game longer just so you can play the fun parts.

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  9. #49
    No. "Gear grind" MMO's have the best of both worlds.

    I enjoy gearing my character, seeing the drops or buying from pvp vendor.

    Once your geared is it then not about skill? Say, arena for example. If your playing at a high level, chances are your opponents are just as geared as you are. Skill vs Skill at that point.

  10. #50
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Skill based MMO is the kind where you don't have to grind your heart out to have a shot at doing something in the game ... it should save your time focusing on what's fun, not on keeping you in the game longer just so you can play the fun parts.
    I don't feel a gear grind and difficulty have to be mutually exclusive. This doesn't apply to everyone, but I think a lot of people like the feeling of growing character power. I personally think it's perfectly fine to have stated barriers such as "these bosses will be hard for now. Once you get their gear, you'll be able to fight the next bosses which will be hard for you then." As long as developers keep coming out with new content that's challenging for the new gear, I don't think it's that important that older content is trivialized.

  11. #51
    Mechagnome
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    Short answer, no.

    Longer answer:

    I enjoy the idea of my characters becoming stronger (even if it is for a silly reason like I wear a shiny new hat), that's the whole draw of a fantasy world where you quest to accomplish something bigger than yourself. A skill only game is something that I'd get tired of quickly regardless of if I were good or terrible at it because I actually like the carrot on a stick treadmill design of mmorpgs. People can call it what they like, idc if the game is grindy if it's enjoyable to me.

    My cheeky answer:
    "Entirely Skill-based" seems like a horrendous design for an mmo. If it were subscription based I'd call it doomed to failure even faster than I called it on Swtor (2 months prior to launch). The player base (which I would assume starts small) would quickly be up in arms about how things are unbalanced if there are different classes and playstyles, and QQing about how things are boring if all players are effectively the same. I for one am the type of person who wonders why I lost in a pvp encounter and I know for sure I don't have the humility to say "okay, that guy just out played me" unless it was PAINFULLY obvious. Players not playing at a professional level (both in competitive standards and in personal approach to the game) will make excuses, will QQ, and will quit more likely than not, simply because there's no easy way to get an advantage.

    Now, if someone were to make an mmo like Sword Art Online (Japanese Anime started in summer 2012, based off a Light Novel series), I'd quit wow, and that's saying something.

    Edit: Someone linked a pic for SAO above, thus beating me to the punch on that idea, good show.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    No. MMOs - or games in general - don't fascinate me to a degree that would justify that kind of effort and time investment. It's just gaming. Got other things to do.
    What in the world are you even doing here?
    Last edited by Tsuna; 2012-12-09 at 01:14 PM.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  12. #52
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Stripping the gear out wouldn't change the basic idea of multiple difficulty settings. All gear does is let you slide by on lower-quality performance in areas you would otherwise get stomped. Hence also why the best players push very difficult content while basically totally undergeared.

    The basic formula would not have to change one bit, all that would change is the way the carrot is dangled.

    Someone earlier mentioned they would miss choosing between gearing 'defensively' and 'offensively' as an example. I think that also, there's room for stat manipulation in a 'skill-based' system. The idea though is that everyone is on even footing with that — your performance is not based on fortune/patience with drops or grinds, but just how you chose to allocate this-or-that distribution (similar to Guild Wars 1 and its attribute points, I guess)

    Really, all it would be doing is shortcutting the middleman of time-inflation caused by tedious character-building. Some see that tedium as 'rewarding', though, so it's not a cut-and-dry decision. I think at some point a developer knows they're always alienating some demographic.

    That said, grinding and building is a huge time-occupier in MMOs. Cutting that out means subbing in more "real" things to do or otherwise keep people interested, occupied, and logging in. That is probably where the difficulty of such a grind/gear-free design really sets in.
    Somehow I missed your post when I responded to someone below you. This would definitely be a system that could work, though I'm not sure I would personally find it as entertaining as drops. Gear was always the least important aspect of raiding for me (I personally liked the achievements and competition), but I feel taking new gear out completely would have been less fun for me personally.

    (I hope nobody flips out when I mention a specific game here) Truthfully, I never felt like there was a gear grind in WoW, but then again I only played one toon. Each step of the way was meaningful to me, so I never felt it tedious. I'm perfectly fine with a model like I mentioned when I responded to Repefe: the gear given at each stage is adequate to make the current bosses challenging. When you go up a notch in difficulty, the new gear makes the next set the same difficulty as the last, but you still feel like you're growing in power because your numbers are larger.

  13. #53
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Entirely skill based? Isn't that how run and jump or Ego shooters work?

    Dunno if I would. Stat progression, getting more powerful, gearing up to me is part of the definition of any RPG or MMO...been that way since Dungeon Master (and probably in the pen and paper games before)

    So..seeing how people rage already if you tell them "You only rely on valor upgrades if you are of lesser skill and guilds have cleared heroic raids within two weeks of release as they are more skill and less gear dependent" - even if a few might play that kind of purely skill based game, we might be pretty lonely in it....
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #54
    the biggest problem in this scenario is your standartized gear.
    there would have to be huge vanity rewards, like real outstanding mounts, titles and maybe other things to really mark you as a superior player, as this is what every mmo is all about.
    your name could be displayed in another colour for example. this would be HUGE imo. blue "insertrandomplayer" everywhere and then you see 5 red "betterplayername" and one black "leethaxxor" standing somewhere inbetween.

    i would pay for this shit.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Skill based MMO is the kind where you don't have to grind your heart out to have a shot at doing something in the game ... it should save your time focusing on what's fun, not on keeping you in the game longer just so you can play the fun parts.
    I don't mind the grind. At least not the WoW type one, for example. It's part of the "fun" parts of the game. A constantly skill-based game would annoy me beause it would require constant concentration and constantly high performance. Too strenuous in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    What in the world are you even doing here?
    May be surprising to you, but it's possible to have interest in gaming and still have priorities in life like you would expect from a reasonable adult.

    It's also not just a hobby interest, but a professional one as well.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2012-12-09 at 01:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1
    You know when men aren't listening to you and they have erect penises whilst looking up to the sky thinking of multiple sex positions?

  16. #56
    you could also provide this feeling of getting stronger by just MAKING the character a little stronger with every new boss he kills for the first time.
    the server would adjust your stats to your progress, to let everyone see you are better than them.
    so in the open world you'd run around with x% hp and would hit x% harder, but in organized pvp like arenas and such you would be temporally downgraded again.

    i realize that you would then be stronger in world pvp than other players, but i think this would be a real good thing which gives further motivation, as you appear to be a real badass if you can take down two less progressed guys.

  17. #57
    I would enjoy an MMO like this, gear was never a motivator for me to play games. Gameplay is where its at.

  18. #58
    Depends on the gameplay I suppose. If a game is going to have a lot of success without a type of grind then they need to have really engaging gameplay.

  19. #59
    High Overlord dPwnShop's Avatar
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    I'm surprised we don't see more games with the UO format of really supporting crafting and having your gear/bags lootable when you die. Personally it never bothered me when they split the worlds into Tram/Fel. I understand some people don't want to have to worry about getting griefed by other players.

    The idea that you might lose that powerful sword or bow that you found just adds to fun of a game(but not needing that sword or bow to accomplish things). It was always fairly cheap in UO to get the "standard" set of gear or weps. Character progression at that point becomes player housing, bank roll, character skill level, rare trophies to put into your house and vanity items. For me UO didn't lose its luster when the made tram/fel. It was the moment they created scrolls that allowed your weps/armor to become soulbound, taking away all the risk of going out hunting.

    I know there is a shit load of nostalgia for my time spent with UO. It was my first MMO, and the idea of grouping up with real people in this new world grabbed a hold of me and I fell in love with the genre. I don't remember any other game trying the UO model and honestly I'm not sure how the majority of people would feel about not playing a "gear grind" style game.
    Sorry for the bad English. English is my first and only language but Southern Louisiana public school system has taken its toll.

  20. #60
    mmo yes, strategy for example.
    mmorpg, never. progressing character is huge part of rpg for me.

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