5.2, Rebalancing the Warlock talent trees.

[Jessicka]

GC has said 5.2 will be looking at the talents to rebalance those that are under used and over used to bring them in line. I think Blood Fear has already been talked about a lot, but what about the others?

Tier 1.
I think this tier is pretty balanced. I still think Harvest Life is a bit of a square peg, but I see plenty of people using it so I don't think it's something that needs looking at this expansion; as much as I'd prefer to see a passive mitigation option on that tier alongside the different healing choices.

Tier 2.
Again, pretty balanced, although Mortal Coil doesn't seem all that popular and could probably benefit from a shorter cooldown.

Tier 3.
Soul Link has issues, I like it, but I don't think double dipping from healing as an upside really off-sets the downside of double dipping from damage from cleaves or multidotting. Could use a buff, either increasing the proportion of health or some kind of safety cut-off so you're not killed when your pet is.

Tier 4.
Blood Fear is the "only" PvP option, and Burning Rush the "only" PvE option. Blood Fear is just too good compared to UW in PvP, when I actually feel UW would otherwise be a pretty good pick. Neither have a place in PvE though, leaving us with BR but that is generally outperformed by Gateway or Teleport leaving the whole tier a little redundant.

Tier 5.
I'll have to break down per spec.
Affliction: Sac is just too strong relative to the other two. Since the buff to KJC, I can't see much use of a pet for the spec under anything but the most extreme circumstances of multidotting where you wont get any MG uptime.

Destruction: For single target encounters, they seem pretty balanced but the synergy Sacrifice has with Havoc and FnB just makes it a no brainer against multiple targets.

Demo: Well balanced, Sac probably a bit weak but I'm not sure it's intended to work overly well with the "pet" spec anyway.

Tier 6.
Since the KJC buff, these are just about perfect. I want all of them at once, which is as it should be.

[Deleted]

T1 and T2 is well balanced, no need to change anything there.
T3- soul link is only used for it's +20% hp buff with Sac. I'd rever it to how it used to be, since right now Lock is the only class without any passive damage reduction and it would make Sac less popular due to having to keep up a pet.
T4- if blood fear is to be changed (and it has to be as it's really overpowered), then like i've said, Warlock needs some good passive damage reduction in return (see above).
T5- i wouldn't say that sac is too strong, it's well balanced in fact, it's the other two that are kind of underwhelming in comparision. I'd increase the damage of pets with Supremacy up to 30% (from 20%), and make Service on a 1 min CD but make the extra demon deal 10-20% less damage.
T6- archimonde could use some love.

[ripponesan]

holy hell man, blizzard tells us they are going to do something.
Thats fine for now. No reason to jump the bandwagon hilariously screaming and trying to assume what they gonna do.
Nothing but wasted energy, when you just had to have some patience.

[Hellfury]

My personal somewhat biased opinion

Tier1: I would like to see Soul Leech giving back healing from all sources also pet damage at reduced numbers to be overall the same as it is but more flexible and would resemble the old Fel armor

Tier2: Mortal Coil could benefict from the Cooldown reducing mechanic like Howl of Fear, perhaps Shadowfury aswell

Tier3: Soul Link is garbage just as I predicted in beta, and there is ways to even get you killed in PVE, this talent needs heavy reworking and the toggling feature just doesn't cut it, since 5.1 Sac Pact its perfect out of GBC and 20sec duration loved it expecialy as a demo yummy 300k shields

Tier4: Your wrong Jessicka UW has its place in PVE I dont know what you doing but perhaps you never done Windlord, Empress or Stone Kings? Nevertheless the backfire its abit to much, BF needs rebalance but I would only accept this if they also nerf instant CC across the board

Tier5: They have to make pets more atractive for aff and destro, Supremacy pets could benefict from a 20% passive speed buff and Service made more flexible, shorter CD, shorter Duration outside of GBC perhaps

Tier6: Archimond could be 10% passive like it was on beta keep on use as 25% thou, rest is fine

[wholol]

or they nerf blood fear and we get nothing changed , wouldn't be something they haven't done before lol.

[Nivrax]

Sacrifice absolutely must be the best single target option for Affli, otherwise, any time there is more than one target, using pet will be better. It might need small tweak, but getting it down to others level means it won't be ever used unless pet can't reach boss for extended periods of time. FnB iirc don't get boost from Sac, the cleave does, but that is main reason Destro still floats. I wouldn't mind pets generating some embers though, this way you could have them in case of pure single target fight without the need to reforge gear upside down.

Archimonde is very disappointing after KJC change both in pve and pvp, dps gain is minimal and only useful when you don't have to move at all AND there is lots of aoe damage going off, and active effect don't really make anyone stop attacking you in pvp.

[Nicola]

GC has said 5.2 will be looking at the talents to rebalance those that are under used and over used to bring them in line. I think Blood Fear has already been talked about a lot, but what about the others?

Tier 1.
I think this tier is pretty balanced. I still think Harvest Life is a bit of a square peg, but I see plenty of people using it so I don't think it's something that needs looking at this expansion; as much as I'd prefer to see a passive mitigation option on that tier alongside the different healing choices.

Not balanced at all, dark regeneration is an extremely powerful healing cooldown that is just mandatory for PvP and most fights with big damage spikes.
Soul leech on the other hand is completely useless in PvP and gives little but constant healing in PvE, only useful when constantly taking damage which will in most cases get healed instantly by a healer
Harvest life, on the other hand is not taken for healing at all, but for the dps increase on aoe heavy fights.

Tier 2.
Again, pretty balanced, although Mortal Coil doesn't seem all that popular and could probably benefit from a shorter cooldown.

That's probably why it's the go-to choice for PvE because it heals, howl and shadowfury are pretty useless in PvE.
For PvP on the other hand, they are fairly good, however, we had all of these at once in cataclysm, so it would be better if they'd just give us our old deathcoil, non-instant howl and shadowfury back, and have the talents give an upgrade to the spell of choice.

Tier 3.
Soul Link has issues, I like it, but I don't think double dipping from healing as an upside really off-sets the downside of double dipping from damage from cleaves or multidotting. Could use a buff, either increasing the proportion of health or some kind of safety cut-off so you're not killed when your pet is.

Soul link has it's issues indeed and could require some chances, dark bargain could use a cooldown decrease to 2min.

Tier 4.
Blood Fear is the "only" PvP option, and Burning Rush the "only" PvE option. Blood Fear is just too good compared to UW in PvP, when I actually feel UW would otherwise be a pretty good pick. Neither have a place in PvE though, leaving us with BR but that is generally outperformed by Gateway or Teleport leaving the whole tier a little redundant.

Burning rush is useless everywere due the ridiculous healthcost. Either the speedincrease needs a buff, or the healthcost should be reduced, by a lot.
Blood fear is stupid in PvP, however, unlike what you say, Unbound Will is also used in PvP, not in arena, but very often seen in RBG.
Talking about Unbound Will, it actually is the go-to choice for PvE, 2 reasons: 1, it removes CC and 2, it removes magical effects on you. In other words, it works as a dispel on you.

Tier 5.
I'll have to break down per spec.
Affliction: Sac is just too strong relative to the other two. Since the buff to KJC, I can't see much use of a pet for the spec under anything but the most extreme circumstances of multidotting where you wont get any MG uptime.

That's only when multidotting, the dps gain is pretty well balanced on a single target

Destruction: For single target encounters, they seem pretty balanced but the synergy Sacrifice has with Havoc and FnB just makes it a no brainer against multiple targets.

Again, that's only when cleaving. Service is doing better on fights where you can't abuse havoc.

Demo: Well balanced, Sac probably a bit weak but I'm not sure it's intended to work overly well with the "pet" spec anyway.

Sac is actually pretty weak for PvE because your fury generation get's crippled.

Tier 6.
Since the KJC buff, these are just about perfect. I want all of them at once, which is as it should be.

Archimondes vengeance is too weak compared to KJC, mannoroth's fury is fairly good, but should again work with non-damaging spells imo.

[Aruotnof]

I hope when Blizz says that will rebalance the talents, they don´t nerf another to achieve this!

[Sylar Hao]

My personal somewhat biased opinion

Tier1: I would like to see Soul Leech giving back healing from all sources also pet damage at reduced numbers to be overall the same as it is but more flexible and would resemble the old Fel armor

Tier2: Mortal Coil could benefict from the Cooldown reducing mechanic like Howl of Fear, perhaps Shadowfury aswell

Tier3: Soul Link is garbage just as I predicted in beta, and there is ways to even get you killed in PVE, this talent needs heavy reworking and the toggling feature just doesn't cut it, since 5.1 Sac Pact its perfect out of GBC and 20sec duration loved it expecialy as a demo yummy 300k shields

Tier4: Your wrong Jessicka UW has its place in PVE I dont know what you doing but perhaps you never done Windlord, Empress or Stone Kings? Nevertheless the backfire its abit to much, BF needs rebalance but I would only accept this if they also nerf instant CC across the board

Tier5: They have to make pets more atractive for aff and destro, Supremacy pets could benefict from a 20% passive speed buff and Service made more flexible, shorter CD, shorter Duration outside of GBC perhaps

Tier6: Archimond could be 10% passive like it was on beta keep on use as 25% thou, rest is fine

I actually agree with your T2 idea with all 3 CC getting CD's getting reduced upon getting hit.

I do like the actual Soul Link, but the downside double dipping effect makes it not worthtaking, at least in PvP. In my opinion it could provide some passive damage reduction, 5-10% and then use how the actual SL works but making it benefit less from healing and hurting less from damage. Or they could increase the pet health back to 100% and eliminate the toggable CD.

[Harsesis]

I totally disagree with you in regards to Unbinding Will being useless in PvE. Thinking just about MSV fights I can think of a couple uses for it. Breaking the snare after popping a mine on Stone Guard. Breaking the stun on Feng if you are soaking the fist for the tank. Breaking pinning arrow on Spirit Kings. That's just to name a few.

[Deleted]

Tier 5.
I'll have to break down per spec.


Destruction: For single target encounters, they seem pretty balanced but the synergy Sacrifice has with Havoc and FnB just makes it a no brainer against multiple targets.

"Spells modified by Fire and Brimstone are unaffected." <- Grimoire of Sacrifice tooltip.

Also, using Blood Fear in PvE at Lei Shi.

[Deleted]

Tier 2.
Again, pretty balanced, although Mortal Coil doesn't seem all that popular and could probably benefit from a shorter cooldown.

What? MC is Godly in raiding, 15% heal on a 45sec CD? Yes please.

Other than that, I agree with just about everything you say. I still think T6 could use a bit of rejigging, in pve at least - AV is just about useless now that KJC isn't shafting your dps when moving. They all seem a bit cookiecutter though, KJC when you need to move, MF when you need to AOE and AV when there's absolutely none of the other two - though you need to move so regularly and the dps gain from AV is so low that I'd usually just stick with KJC even on fights with very little movement.

I might be off the mark in terms of pvp balance, but that's how I feel about those 2 tiers in pve and I agree with you on the others.

I really love our talent system, so much better than WOTLK / Cata afflictions "pick between COE or larger AOE on curses".

I WOULD like to see sacrificed succubus fixed to either give seduction on a NONE channeled, cast and forget basis OR more ideally, to give whiplash. Saccing a sucubus is just never worth it as far as I'm aware.

[Deleted]

My summary of the Tier, mostly from a PvE GoSac Destro PoV :
Tier 1: Harvest Life is useless for Destro, I don't know why it doesn't generate embers like for Demo ? I'm almost always using Dark Regeneration.
Tier 2: Almost always Mortal Coil for a little extra heal, Shadowfury on some fights (Lei Shi, Zor'lok...). I have never specced into Howl of Terror actually.
Tier 3: Dark Bargain for an "oh-shit" button is pretty nice, compared to the two others (with GoSac).
Tier 4: Blood Fear is almost useless in PvE (Lei Shi ?). I'm specced into Unbound Will when it's useful (Un'sok, Stone Guard, Spirit Kings, Protectors...), or Burning Rush by default, mostly for the corpse runs.
Tier 5: I've been 100% GoSac since release, except when questing/farming with the big Voidwalker, not much to say on this row...
Tier 6: MF surprisingly turned out to be awesome for Destro. KJC is awesome too since 5.1. Archimonde is the lackluster talent now, I don't think I would take it on any T14 fights apart from Mel'jarak and perhaps Feng.

So in my opinion the most important points :
- AV needs a buff
- Harvest Life needs a reason to be taken in Destro

Extra :
- Remove/reduce the health cost of Blood Fear when targetting NPCs ?

[Jessicka]

Tier4: Your wrong Jessicka UW has its place in PVE I dont know what you doing but perhaps you never done Windlord, Empress or Stone Kings? Nevertheless the backfire its abit to much, BF needs rebalance but I would only accept this if they also nerf instant CC across the board

I'm human, have EMFH; you're right for non-humans it is a good pick in PvE. Still Blood Fear needs to be less attractive if either of the other two are to be attractive to PvP.

[Iry]

I almost always combine Soul Link + GoSac for the bonus 20% Health, unless the fight has a specific mechanic that generates immense burst (like Feng). That's 20% additional healing on all of your percentile healing.

Unbound Will is definitely the winner in PVE. Popping it when you are frozen from a Cobalt Mine and Jasper Chained to a melee can save your raid. My guild does not even bother if I get hit with Pinning Arrow; I am just expected to UW out of it. The only fights I can think of where Burning Rush -really- shines is avoiding Attenuation and maybe Garalon if you are doing Pheremones.

[Deleted]

It makes me so sad to think of this:
"For PvP on the other hand, they are fairly good, however, we had all of these at once in cataclysm, so it would be better if they'd just give us our old deathcoil, non-instant howl and shadowfury back, and have the talents give an upgrade to the spell of choice."
So where mages got another ability on top of their huge pile of cc buttons, we got all of ours taken away and get to choose one. Best balancing move EVER. PVP point of view btw. EVER. Wot?
Imagine if mages had to choose between Ring of Frost, Frost Nova and Deep Freeze. Impossible to imagine isn't it? Makes me sad.

[Nicola]

I'm human, have EMFH; you're right for non-humans it is a good pick in PvE. Still Blood Fear needs to be less attractive if either of the other two are to be attractive to PvP.

Even for humans it's still a good pick because it dispels all magical effects on you....

It makes me so sad to think of this:
"For PvP on the other hand, they are fairly good, however, we had all of these at once in cataclysm, so it would be better if they'd just give us our old deathcoil, non-instant howl and shadowfury back, and have the talents give an upgrade to the spell of choice."
So where mages got another ability on top of their huge pile of cc buttons, we got all of ours taken away and get to choose one. Best balancing move EVER. PVP point of view btw. EVER. Wot?
Imagine if mages had to choose between Ring of Frost, Frost Nova and Deep Freeze. Impossible to imagine isn't it? Makes me sad.

Uhh what are you saying?

[Brauhm]

I almost always combine Soul Link + GoSac for the bonus 20% Health, unless the fight has a specific mechanic that generates immense burst (like Feng). That's 20% additional healing on all of your percentile healing.

Unbound Will is definitely the winner in PVE. Popping it when you are frozen from a Cobalt Mine and Jasper Chained to a melee can save your raid. My guild does not even bother if I get hit with Pinning Arrow; I am just expected to UW out of it. The only fights I can think of where Burning Rush -really- shines is avoiding Attenuation and maybe Garalon if you are doing Pheremones.

Are you doing heroic kings? because i find burning rush to be mandatory to get out of double flanks when stuck with the 30% movement debuff. I mean I could just felflame more but still. Portals, for me, aren't enough on that fight.

[Sabsy]

btw in case u didn't know, u can unbound will and drop the stacks of KJC... this is nice on fights like heroic will or heroic blade lord if you are in a tight spot

i think the final tier is the only one that's really awful... i am liking the new kjc but av has always been crap (well, since they nerfed it to hell in beta)

[Expandus]

btw in case u didn't know, u can unbound will and drop the stacks of KJC... this is nice on fights like heroic will or heroic blade lord if you are in a tight spot

Why would you pick a talent that lets you drops the stacks 1 time each min for 20% of you hp when you can pick one that negates the slow on as many times as you want for usually a lot cheaper(not very often you have to move for 5 sec+). Using unbound will to drop them also means you can't really keep dpsing while you move because you will just build the stacks right up, that kinda defeats the purpose of having kjc in the first place. Burning Rush is in most cases a much better choice for dealing with the 30% slow.