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  1. #421
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    they refused to honor the blood of the fallen by renaming themselves Sin'dorei
    That's not exactly the whole picture or why.

    They did rename themselves Blood Elves up until the point Rommath returned and showed Kael's methods which caused the split. The siphoning of magic in the way Kael taught was seen as a part of this new Blood Elf culture and it was so wrong in their opinion that they would have nothing to do with the Blood Elves. In the High Elves eyes the Blood Elves were essentially dishonouring the memory of the dead by committing such acts.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    In the High Elves eyes the Blood Elves were essentially dishonouring the memory of the dead by committing such acts.
    Dishonored or not, it sealed the fates of the idealists. They WILL die out, its only a matter of time. Thanks to the bold but stupid move of Silver Covenant, this may come sooner.

  3. #423
    Stood in the Fire High Priestess Ishanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    In the High Elves eyes the Blood Elves were essentially dishonouring the memory of the dead by committing such acts.
    Wheres this said? You cant respect the dead much more than to rename your entire race in their honor and start wearing the high elven color of mourning (crimson) en masse

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    they refused to honor the blood of the fallen by renaming themselves Sin'dorei
    Are you saying that those who still call themselves proudly as Quel'dorei feel no sorrow or pain for all those fellows who perished so savagely?
    Of course the Quel'dorei respect and yearn the fallen, but they do not believe that by completely changing their way of life and by abolishing all their customs and traditions and much less by changing the name of their race they will honor them best.

    The Sin'dorei chose to reinvent their culture in every way while Quel'dorei chose to remain faithful to their ancient customs; these are two contrasting ways of dealing a great calamity like they suffered in the Third War. And I personally consider the High Elves way the most ethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    their old allies abandoned them to the scourge, and than tried to spy and sabotage them.
    The Alliance did not leave to their fate to the High Elves in the Third War, basically because the Alliance was completely destroyed by the Scourge and the Burning Legion: it was totally unable for them to attend the call for help from its elves allies. In fact it seems that several battalions of dwarves and humans from the already desolate kingdom of Lordaeron went to help the elves, but all of them perished: it was all in vain.

    The excuse that the Alliance did not come to the aid of the High Elves is typical of the most radical, proud, egotistical and uncompromising Sin'dorei, the same who urged the king Anasterian to terminate the Alliance of Lordaeron after the Second War with the slightest excuse as pretext.

    That is the point of view of Sin'dorei: the Alliance failed them when they most needed it, but luckily not all elves are as stubborn as the Blood Elves. Fortunately, the remaining High Elves have another different view of what happened: the hardness of the events surpassed them all, each one did what he could, and in these times of distress the best option was to stay together and support each other, even until today.

    And by the way, these issues of espionage and sabotage of which you talk, occurred after the Blood Elves had changed the direction of their culture and taken more than questionable decisions (Kael'thas rebellion, alliance with the Naga, etc.) that is, when they already were Blood Elves themselves. After those recent events, the Alliance just simply wanted to watch their former allies in case they turned against them... as unfortunately they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    by refusing to join the same group 90% of their people did, that 10% became traitors.
    In other words, if you do not do what most people are doing, you are a traitor. Inconceivable.

    From the point of view of the Blood Elves and the Horde, that 10% of Quel'dorei became traitors by not wanting to change their culture. But at the same time, from the point of view of the High Elves and the Alliance, that 90% of Sin'dorei also became traitors for siding with their bitter enemies and turn away from their lifelong partners. But, which of these treasons is clearer? In my view, it is obvious that the Blood Elves one...

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    by refusing to feed on those energies, the high elves created an uncomfortable situation within the government of silvermoon. theron couldn't lead a destroyed and divided nation, and he couldn't fix it fast enough, so he had to exile the 10% who didn't want to follow the same path as the rest of their people in order to maintain the order within his country. they brought it upon themselves.
    This means that in order to maintain the order in the kingdom, it was justified resorting to unethical methods such as absorbing fel energy: the more easy and convenient method, typical of the Blood Elves...

    Only people of low moral standards could accept that so execrable method of quench their thirst for magic. Fortunately there was a 10% of real Quel'dorei who preferred to suffer rather than betray themselves.

    The price of become contaminated with fel magic had a high cost: they condemned forever their lineage and stained their hitherto neat race. However, with the passage of time it was shown that the destruction of the Sunwell had its positive side for the High Elves as these stopped relying on magic by learning to control their addiction through meditation and self-control.

    And, although the Sunwell has been restored to the delight of the Blood Elves, they can never clean the demonic macula that their bodies contain.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    no, they deny their glorious past towards a future at the mercy of people who don't really care about their dying race, namely humans.
    Are you suggesting that the High Elves' fate is fully linked to the humans? No more than the fate of the Blood Elves is linked to the rest of the Horde...

    It is true that the High Elves need the support of humans in particular and the entire Alliance in general to succeed, but that's because their own race, the Sin'dorei, sidelined them for doing what is right.

    Also remember that not so long ago the blood elves themselves practically begged the help of the Horde. In times of need any help is little.

    A day will come in which the High Elves can fend for themselves, but until that day comes, the High Elves can enlist the help of the Alliance, because the Alliance itself is worthy of deserving trust and respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Dishonored or not, it sealed the fates of the idealists. They WILL die out, its only a matter of time. Thanks to the bold but stupid move of Silver Covenant, this may come sooner.
    I do not know of where so much hatred for the High Elves is originated, it seems that bother you that the high elves can prevail despite the circumstances. So much hatred and resentment is not good, if you keep this up you'll end up on the Horde...

    And for those who say that the High Elves are in extinction: while at least two High Elves that can reproduce exist, the High Elf hope is assured. At the end of the day we are talking about a millennial race with a great longevity, a great spiritual strength and powerful allies at his side. Are more likely to become extinct the Gnomes before the High Elves (at least they are not constantly endangering their lives).

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosege View Post
    Wheres this said? You cant respect the dead much more than to rename your entire race in their honor and start wearing the high elven color of mourning (crimson) en masse
    Defiling your traditions by radically changing your ancient culture in a bombastic way and even change the name of your own race is not merely a sign of mourning, is pure hypocrisy. Cannot be more cynical than the Blood Elves, those who presume to keep the memory of their fallen people are nothing more than traitors to the memory of their ancestors as I said at the beginning ... They should be ashamed!


  5. #425
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Dishonored or not, it sealed the fates of the idealists. They WILL die out, its only a matter of time. Thanks to the bold but stupid move of Silver Covenant, this may come sooner.

    No...no it won't. Stop assuming it will because you don't like it.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  6. #426
    Field Marshal saintminya's Avatar
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    Considering the reasons behind Dalaran moving in the first place, banishing Sunreavers and whatnot, alongside the whole Ancient Portal thing, I think its safe to assume that it is moving back to Hillsbrad.

    The Kirin Tor are at war with not just Sunreavers, but the the entire population of Blood Elves. The Alliance is doing with the Horde in Pandaria, Org is not a big deal yet, Jaina priority is clearly dealing with blood elves. And to finally bring Sylvanas into the story, I'm sure once Dalaran lands, the Forsaken will team with the blood elves for a full on assault...er onslaught.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Are you saying that those who still call themselves proudly as Quel'dorei feel no sorrow or pain for all those fellows who perished so savagely?
    If he isn't, I will. They were the Sin'dorei at the very popular designation of their legitimate sovereign long before anything that are on their squeemish list of grievances began, probably weeks if not months before the idea of nomming on fel energy even occurred to anyone. They were Sin'dorei when they went to Northrend, with Kael'thas, during the Third War.

    Take any given American President that a lot of people really don't like -- abandoning the name "Sin'dorei" for no reason other than that it was Kael'thas who enacted it is about as logical and dignified as, I don't know, Americans denouncing some popular act made in a national time of mourning (ordering a memorial built, for instance) because they disagree about other things.

    They are the Sin'dorei because it gives honor and homage to their losses when the Scourge came -- and the effort of so many brave who barely survived (them that did anything of note anyway, unlike Vereesa who appears to have just signed the guest book for the fall of Quel'thalas). The only reason one could have to deny that name is because the point they think they are making outweighs whatever importance they place on the events.

    The Sin'dorei chose to reinvent their culture in every way while Quel'dorei chose to remain faithful to their ancient customs; these are two contrasting ways of dealing a great calamity like they suffered in the Third War. And I personally consider the High Elves way the most ethical.
    Ugh, I hate fanon. "Reinvent their culture in every way"? That's just a baseless statement. Their actual circumstances changed utterly, first of all. The "old ways" necessarily change when half your capital city is destroyed, your countryside is laid nearly waste, 90% of your population is killed, almost your entire political structure except for the Crown Prince, thankfully absent, and that's all before even pointing out the destruction of the Sunwell. The old ways were over no matter what happened next.

    The Alliance did not leave to their fate to the High Elves in the Third War, basically because the Alliance was completely destroyed by the Scourge and the Burning Legion: it was totally unable for them to attend the call for help from its elves allies. In fact it seems that several battalions of dwarves and humans from the already desolate kingdom of Lordaeron went to help the elves, but all of them perished: it was all in vain.

    The excuse that the Alliance did not come to the aid of the High Elves is typical of the most radical, proud, egotistical and uncompromising Sin'dorei, the same who urged the king Anasterian to terminate the Alliance of Lordaeron after the Second War with the slightest excuse as pretext.
    I don't think it's as big a deal that the Alliance didn't help where they didn't have the capacity, but coupled with the fact that it was Lordaeron's utter failure in almost every respect with identifying the threats, with controlling their own people, with their obsessive man-child crusader going off to turn into the very thing that actually did all the damage, that tends to offend. Everything that happened to Lordaeron and Quel'thalas in the Third War happened in largest part if not in whole because of the bang-up job Terenas, Uther, royal privelege, human culture, etc, had allowed Arthas to become. Oh he was being manipulated, all the way back to Kel'thuz... 'nother human.

    And by the way, these issues of espionage and sabotage of which you talk, occurred after the Blood Elves had changed the direction of their culture and taken more than questionable decisions (Kael'thas rebellion, alliance with the Naga, etc.) that is, when they already were Blood Elves themselves. After those recent events, the Alliance just simply wanted to watch their former allies in case they turned against them... as unfortunately they did.
    Sabotage and espionage are aggressive, hostile actions to take. Neither of which are mere surveillance. Honestly, the 5.1 story line puts the lie to any spin you have along those lines, because (discreet) diplomatic channels were available even after the Sin'dorei joined the Horde. Yet we're to believe that the Alliance was so genteel in its concern that it's only resort in dealing with a neutral, most recently directly aligned state was to land forces in their territory and to disrupt their rebuilding efforts?

    From the point of view of the Blood Elves and the Horde, that 10% of Quel'dorei became traitors by not wanting to change their culture. But at the same time, from the point of view of the High Elves and the Alliance, that 90% of Sin'dorei also became traitors for siding with their bitter enemies and turn away from their lifelong partners. But, which of these treasons is clearer? In my view, it is obvious that the Blood Elves one...
    I think the Sin'dorei have mostly treated them in lore not as traitors but as... expatriates, which is the word I use for them. It shows in how Lor'themar deals with the ill-fated lodge in EPL, for instance. It shows in the number of ostensible non-Sin'dorei (although we can only guess that we are meant to assume that every elf that's meant to be Sin'dorei will have the fel-flaked eyes) are welcome peaceably in Quel'danas long after the Shattered Sun Offensive had ended. And it shows the Ranger-General of Silvermoon collaborating with Vereesa. I can't think of a "high elf" character that's treated as having betrayed their kingdom. They did what expatriates do when they disagree; they left.

    Now, that math has changed -- the Silver Covenant, if they weren't considered enemies of Quel'thalas before, they certainly are now. Their behavior in Dalaran was thuggish and unambivalently violent. What happened to the blood elves dwelling there was as paranoid, arbitrary, and unjust as the "trials" in "The Dark Knight Rises", and the choices given to Sunreavers against whom not a single fact had been presented of wrongdoing were basically the same -- death or exile. Anasterian or Dath'remar would order Vereesa brought to justice themselves if they could.

    This means that in order to maintain the order in the kingdom, it was justified resorting to unethical methods such as absorbing fel energy: the more easy and convenient method, typical of the Blood Elves...

    Only people of low moral standards could accept that so execrable method of quench their thirst for magic. Fortunately there was a 10% of real Quel'dorei who preferred to suffer rather than betray themselves.
    What of the other, desperate efforts to combat the addiction that were unsuccessful? Magistrix Elosai -- also an exile from Silvermoon but oddly one who did not appear to reject the name Sin'dorei, she was a Blood Elf -- lost herself as a Wretched while attempting to draw on natural remedies to stop it. I guess it's a good thing that none of those "high elves" that love Quel'thalas so much ever appeared to lift so much as one damn finger to address the problem in a meaningful way, or they might have been Wretched, too. Oddly enough, for all the abuse the Blood Elves take for siphoning mana from living creatures (not morally any different from siphoning their meat or their skins, but whatever) or even the fel energy, the only documented lore efforts to ever do anything to actually help the Thalassian society be free of the need altogether has all come from named Sin'dorei.

    And, although the Sunwell has been restored to the delight of the Blood Elves, they can never clean the demonic macula that their bodies contain.
    Well, what would Velen or the Naaru know about such things? I believe you instead

    It is true that the High Elves need the support of humans in particular and the entire Alliance in general to succeed, but that's because their own race, the Sin'dorei, sidelined them for doing what is right.
    "What is right" is not walking away from the country they claim to love and contenting themselves with sucking magic out of knickknacks while leaving all the work, all of it, the future of their people, to the ones they call "traitors". I mean, Liadrin preaches the Light now but isn't really state-sanctioned. The Farstriders are sort of an isolationist sect. But the "high elves", they are special snowflakes, they had to force the issue and leave altogether rather than adapt to some sense of social pluralism about mana consumption. They could have turned it down a couple decibels, not all the way off, and probably been welcome to stay. But, no, that wouldn't be as convenient as strutting around Theramore or Dalaran or Stormwind while it's loyal Thalassians who a) finished off the Scourge in Quel'thalas, b) pushed back the resurgent Amani, c) risked blood, treasure, and sanity trying to heal the land and/or their people's addiction, and d) ultimately cast off Kael'thas themselves. Your thought is that their reward for that should be to have the runaways come in after all that exhausing nothing they did and be declared the master class?

  8. #428
    I could refute each of your arguments (some based on ideas as questionable as that humans are to blame for all for the fact of being humans...) but I have no time or inclination.

    One could summarize all in that you and yours will defend to the hilt the Blood Elves, while me and the rest of the Alliance will defend the High Elves until death.

    And that's good, because it forces us to siding with one faction, so we can compete between ourselves. At the end of the day we are talking about the World of Warcraft, and that's the beauty of the Warcraft universe: we all have reason from our point of view, there are no good or bad but the two factions have its lights and shadows, and we can choose which faction to support according to our tastes.

    I am a proud member of the Alliance and I will defend the banner of the Silver Unicorn so or more than the Golden Lion one, and, what about you? (No need to answer)


  9. #429
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosege View Post
    Wheres this said? You cant respect the dead much more than to rename your entire race in their honor and start wearing the high elven color of mourning (crimson) en masse
    Because they saw this new society that supposedly was built around honouring their fallen basically making decisions that were seen to many as depraved and desperate most notably the use of Fel Magic which they saw as dragging their good name and their fallen's sacrifice through the dirt.

    Basically the High Elves thought the best way to honour the dead was to keep their head's high, the Blood Elves did not even if they thought it was necessary to survive.

    It's the same old same old, High Elves were very conservative and idealised in their old ways. The Blood Elves were not.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-24 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    In other words, if you do not do what most people are doing, you are a traitor. Inconceivable.
    if you stay on the side of your people's new enemies, than yes. you are a traitor.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post

    "What is right" is not walking away from the country they claim to love and contenting themselves with sucking magic out of knickknacks while leaving all the work, all of it, the future of their people, to the ones they call "traitors". I mean, Liadrin preaches the Light now but isn't really state-sanctioned. The Farstriders are sort of an isolationist sect. But the "high elves", they are special snowflakes, they had to force the issue and leave altogether rather than adapt to some sense of social pluralism about mana consumption. They could have turned it down a couple decibels, not all the way off, and probably been welcome to stay. But, no, that wouldn't be as convenient as strutting around Theramore or Dalaran or Stormwind while it's loyal Thalassians who a) finished off the Scourge in Quel'thalas, b) pushed back the resurgent Amani, c) risked blood, treasure, and sanity trying to heal the land and/or their people's addiction, and d) ultimately cast off Kael'thas themselves. Your thought is that their reward for that should be to have the runaways come in after all that exhausing nothing they did and be declared the master class?
    I don't know how widespread this was, but I know the blood elves used some pretty shady means. Such as sending agents to mind control a person publicly denouncing the way things were going on a Silvermoon street corner. (I think this npc event may still be in game in Silvermoon.) Lor'themar also banished several elves from Quel'Thelas according to his short story because he feared what their dissent would bring. The moral ambiguity is on more than one side here.

  12. #432
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    It is and will always remain sanctuary I can guarantee you that. So wherever it goes it will be for both factions.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It is and will always remain sanctuary I can guarantee you that. So wherever it goes it will be for both factions.
    Well, the Northrend version will. If Dal does show up somewhere else in the world and the situation is still like it is now, then I doubt the Horde will be allowed in.

  14. #434
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    Will Northrend Dalaran still exist?
    PEPE SILVA, PEPE SILVA

  15. #435
    It's probably been said already, but perhaps the reason why mages have an Ancient Teleport - Dalaran in addition to the old spell is so that players can teleport/portal to the new, phased version of Dalaran down the road, and still teleport/portal to the phased old level 80 version.

  16. #436
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It is and will always remain sanctuary I can guarantee you that. So wherever it goes it will be for both factions.
    God I hope not, I want architecture and thematics that fit the Horde. Not a former human kingdom that's decided to forgive the people that devastated it...
    Twas brillig

  17. #437
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It is and will always remain sanctuary I can guarantee you that. So wherever it goes it will be for both factions.
    No I doubt this, didn't Jaina in one of the books already expel the horde or some affiliated faction from Dalaran?
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  18. #438
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    No I doubt this, didn't Jaina in one of the books already expel the horde or some affiliated faction from Dalaran?
    Not the book, the quest chain ingame after the divine bell gets stolen from Darnassus.
    Twas brillig

  19. #439
    What about making it a new Battle Ground? I would really like to see it as a BG.

  20. #440
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Well I mean the Northrend one, there's too much crap in there for the horde and Blizzard is too lazy to move it somewhere else.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

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