1. #1
    Warchief Clevername's Avatar
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    Think Wrath needs a buff?

    I'm not starting this to do more of the 'boomkins suck / we're fine' argument. I'm happy with my dps and have no real gripes EXCEPT.... I think wrath is just weak I mean i get wrath is a faster cast but in most boss fights my wrath is 6th in dmging spells with usually substantially more wrath than starfire attacks. I guess I can see that if wrath was buffed it might push us into the OMG OP zone but I just feel like even with crits in solar eclipse it's hitting like a wet noodle. Interested in your thoughts.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Clevername View Post
    I'm not starting this to do more of the 'boomkins suck / we're fine' argument. I'm happy with my dps and have no real gripes EXCEPT.... I think wrath is just weak I mean i get wrath is a faster cast but in most boss fights my wrath is 6th in dmging spells with usually substantially more wrath than starfire attacks. I guess I can see that if wrath was buffed it might push us into the OMG OP zone but I just feel like even with crits in solar eclipse it's hitting like a wet noodle. Interested in your thoughts.
    I agree, wholeheartedly. Wrath being worse than poking the boss with a toothpick is irritating, just a small buff to bring it up a bit, id have expected it to be 3rd on damage with SF/SS being 1 and 2 on single target. Assuming you get spammed with SS procs
    Can always hope that blizzard have noticed it being so...weak and will balance (heh see what i did there) it out in the near future

  3. #3
    Warchief Clevername's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't think I"m asking too much, I mean the worst time is in pvp when you're in a solar, have a chance to free cast and you are sitting there spamming wrath and it's pure poop, I honestly wouldn't mind if they even dropped starfire damage just a bit to compensate. What I don't want is them to make starfire and wrath too similar, so I guess maybe I'm bringing up a problem without a valid solution.

  4. #4
    The problem really manifests when there are time sensitive dps tasks to be completed. For example, once you outgear Elegon the orbs are not a big deal. But if you have a 467 ilvl or whatnot and are unlucky on starsurge procs, things can get hairy if you're in solar. I recall at the beginning of the expansion when we first killed Elegon I felt really stupid because I was on top of the dps meters overall but always had to have someone watch my orb in case I had bad rng.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    No I don't. I think it's fine the way it is.

  6. #6
    so if you're happy with your dps, and they buff wrath, that means you're doing more dps?

    so are you looking for more dps overall?

    if not, what gets nerfed to compensate for a more powerful wrath?

  7. #7
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asharia View Post
    so if you're happy with your dps, and they buff wrath, that means you're doing more dps?

    so are you looking for more dps overall?

    if not, what gets nerfed to compensate for a more powerful wrath?
    Our 3 minute burst is very strong in lunar. I think if we were to re-align the eclipses again (buff wrath, buff astral storm, nerf hurricane, nerf starfire), our net damage would be about the same and we'd have more consistent DPS. When we know specific direct-damage portions are coming up (ie: Recklessness on heroic wind lord) or specific AoE packs, we're still either having to sit just outside an Eclipse or spend 2-6 seconds using AC to get into the Eclipse of choice. That downtime is unacceptable. Right now we jump way out ahead during our burst, then free-fall until our next burst period, hopefully this would even it out a bit.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Our 3 minute burst is very strong in lunar. I think if we were to re-align the eclipses again (buff wrath, buff astral storm, nerf hurricane, nerf starfire), our net damage would be about the same and we'd have more consistent DPS. When we know specific direct-damage portions are coming up (ie: Recklessness on heroic wind lord) or specific AoE packs, we're still either having to sit just outside an Eclipse or spend 2-6 seconds using AC to get into the Eclipse of choice. That downtime is unacceptable. Right now we jump way out ahead during our burst, then free-fall until our next burst period, hopefully this would even it out a bit.
    I agree with you sunfyre, I notice on fights where I can tunnel for the first 30sec I can speed way out in front. Once my CDs drop off I slowly slide back down, I'd take a small starfire nerf for a wrath buff, however I don't think blizzard will directly buff us, can always hope, speaking from normal mode exp, not done any heroic modes semi-casual guild ftw

  9. #9
    My Recount often looks like SF, SS, StarFall/Dots, Wrath
    I'm scared that if blizz would look at our dmg mether and see that Starfall in dmg done is higher than Wrath they would nerf it until wrath comes above it once again.

    You know how their brain "work"

    What we need is:
    - Stackable x2 Shooting Stars proc
    - Removal of Starsurge lockout if another one is flying because it's just stupid, old and can be avoided
    - Buff to wrath Single target dmg and nerf to starfire only if the buff to wrath is Huge, because otherwise we can't kill anyone in pvp (I'm relying on big starfire crits+SS procs in pvp to kill things like warriors :S)
    - Buff to Astral Storm to bring it on par with Hurricane
    - Hurricane should be the default spell while in Celestial Alignment
    - Default direction toward lunar pls ? Every Balance druid always starts from 75 > lunar it's a waste of time pre-pull to reach solar and back to lunar /lol
    - Give us a new mechanic to dps while moving? Lunar Shower Sucks, Hunters can keep 100% dps while moving , Warlocks can continue casting spells while moving, Elemental Shamans can cast Lightning bolts, Mages can keep spamming scorch and instant cast Pyroblasts, i don't like to spam x3 GCD to have a moonfire buffed for when i'm no longer moving :| (not that it would deal an insane amount of dmg at 3 stacks)
    - Fix Starfall to make it always drop 20 stars if there's just one target and not hit Crowd Controlled / Immune / Deflecting Mobs in boss fights like Empress or Sha ?
    Last edited by Meldon; 2012-12-16 at 11:22 AM.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Babytaco's Avatar
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    I think it's fine the way it is, but I do understand what you are saying.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephyron View Post
    My Recount often looks like SF, SS, StarFall/Dots, Wrath
    I'm scared that if blizz would look at our dmg mether and see that Starfall in dmg done is higher than Wrath they would nerf it until wrath comes above it once again.

    You know how their brain "work"

    What we need is:
    - Stackable x2 Shooting Stars proc
    - Removal of Starsurge lockout if another one is flying because it's just stupid, old and can be avoided
    - Buff to wrath Single target dmg and nerf to starfire only if the buff to wrath is Huge, because otherwise we can't kill anyone in pvp (I'm relying on big starfire crits+SS procs in pvp to kill things like warriors :S)
    - Buff to Astral Storm to bring it on par with Hurricane
    - Hurricane should be the default spell while in Celestial Alignment
    - Default direction toward lunar pls ? Every Balance druid always starts from 75 > lunar it's a waste of time pre-pull to reach solar and back to lunar /lol
    - Give us a new mechanic to dps while moving? Lunar Shower Sucks, Hunters can keep 100% dps while moving , Warlocks can continue casting spells while moving, Elemental Shamans can cast Lightning bolts, Mages can keep spamming scorch and instant cast Pyroblasts, i don't like to spam x3 GCD to have a moonfire buffed for when i'm no longer moving :| (not that it would deal an insane amount of dmg at 3 stacks)
    - Fix Starfall to make it always drop 20 stars if there's just one target and not hit Crowd Controlled / Immune / Deflecting Mobs in boss fights like Empress or Sha ?
    This.
    Especially the starfall thing....drives me NUTS, ive bug reported it like 25 times

  12. #12
    the design philsophy goes "lunar for single target, solar for aoe" so in a sense, it makes sense, and is fine for wrath to suck. However, our aoe is balls awful on anything more than 3 targets and less than, like, eight. leave wrath alone, fix mushrooms, nerf starfire by 3% or whatever, and it will be perfect. alternatively, don't buff mushroom damage, give it back E&M spreading, and it will be even better.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    the design philsophy goes "lunar for single target, solar for aoe" so in a sense, it makes sense, and is fine for wrath to suck. However, our aoe is balls awful on anything more than 3 targets and less than, like, eight. leave wrath alone, fix mushrooms, nerf starfire by 3% or whatever, and it will be perfect. alternatively, don't buff mushroom damage, give it back E&M spreading, and it will be even better.
    E&M - but just for us. :P

    The problem for me is that when I have to move my dps is awful, LS is for crap
    Last edited by Drayarr; 2012-12-17 at 12:25 AM.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    the design philsophy goes "lunar for single target, solar for aoe" so in a sense, it makes sense, and is fine for wrath to suck. However, our aoe is balls awful on anything more than 3 targets and less than, like, eight. leave wrath alone, fix mushrooms, nerf starfire by 3% or whatever, and it will be perfect. alternatively, don't buff mushroom damage, give it back E&M spreading, and it will be even better.
    Nowadays the AoE eclipse more seems like it's lunar eclipse. Tbh, I don't think there's any "AoE" eclipse anymore. Lunar has Starfall for AoE and solar has mushrooms for AoE (which should be buffed)

  15. #15
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terahertz View Post
    Nowadays the AoE eclipse more seems like it's lunar eclipse. Tbh, I don't think there's any "AoE" eclipse anymore. Lunar has Starfall for AoE and solar has mushrooms for AoE (which should be buffed)
    Not sure if you've played balance since Cataclysm, but:

    Starfall maxes out at 20 stars. That's two targets. The same damage is applied if it's 2 targets or 2,500 targets. Splash damage was removed (pre-Cataclysm).

    Wild Mushroom damage is pretty weak, but Hurricane damage is miles ahead of Astral Storm damage, so Solar really is the eclipse to be in for AoE. The problem is in boss encounters, the swap between the two is rather quick, and you're burning a lot of downtime using AC to swap to them properly.

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  16. #16
    I just hate how I pop all my CDs and my DPS shoots up to 115k then drops down to around 60-75k depending on how long the fight lasts. I like how we have huge burst, it just sucks to see my DPS drop byo 50k after my CDs are done and having to sit around for them to come back.

  17. #17
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I just hate how I pop all my CDs and my DPS shoots up to 115k then drops down to around 60-75k depending on how long the fight lasts. I like how we have huge burst, it just sucks to see my DPS drop byo 50k after my CDs are done and having to sit around for them to come back.
    Especially given that we have no execute, our overall parse damage really depends on whether we can get full utility of our cool downs and where in that three minute cycle the actual boss death happens. In multi add fights, execute is just ridiculous, and those balanced around execute will always have a boss below 25% health. There's a huge difference between a 6:30 fight and 8:30 fight for us. I guess that's why we have hotw/sotf, but the average of those doesn't come near the burst cool downs in most cases.

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  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephyron View Post
    My Recount often looks like SF, SS, StarFall/Dots, Wrath
    I'm scared that if blizz would look at our dmg mether and see that Starfall in dmg done is higher than Wrath they would nerf it until wrath comes above it once again.

    You know how their brain "work"

    What we need is:
    - Stackable x2 Shooting Stars proc
    - Removal of Starsurge lockout if another one is flying because it's just stupid, old and can be avoided
    - Buff to wrath Single target dmg and nerf to starfire only if the buff to wrath is Huge, because otherwise we can't kill anyone in pvp (I'm relying on big starfire crits+SS procs in pvp to kill things like warriors :S)
    - Buff to Astral Storm to bring it on par with Hurricane
    - Hurricane should be the default spell while in Celestial Alignment
    - Default direction toward lunar pls ? Every Balance druid always starts from 75 > lunar it's a waste of time pre-pull to reach solar and back to lunar /lol
    - Give us a new mechanic to dps while moving? Lunar Shower Sucks, Hunters can keep 100% dps while moving , Warlocks can continue casting spells while moving, Elemental Shamans can cast Lightning bolts, Mages can keep spamming scorch and instant cast Pyroblasts, i don't like to spam x3 GCD to have a moonfire buffed for when i'm no longer moving :| (not that it would deal an insane amount of dmg at 3 stacks)
    - Fix Starfall to make it always drop 20 stars if there's just one target and not hit Crowd Controlled / Immune / Deflecting Mobs in boss fights like Empress or Sha ?
    I agree with the SS lockout thing and the last two on this list. Although in MoP now if you get a SS proc immediately after casting one it will automatically cast the second one so that's nice. Lunar Shower is the most garbage on the move DPS in all of PvE, problem is it is actually pretty useful in PvP. Starfall has needed some kind of glyph/overhaul for a long time now. Hitting CCed targets is stupid. Terror Spawns that eat Stars and simply deflect them when you want all your damage on Sha is stupid. Just need a glyph to make Stars ONLY fall on your current target, and as you said always 20 stars (or 10 and buff dmg).

    I don't agree with what most everyone else is saying in terms of making each eclipse more similar in terms of their single target and AoE capabilities. Mainly because there hasn't been a situation this entire tier where I thought "Crap I really need to be in X Eclipse for this, let me stop DPS to cast AC (or let me cast the wrong nuke to stay in my current Eclipse)" Recklessness on WLM lasts just long enough to go through two Eclipse cycles anyway, and the other phase where a lot of Moonkin favor camping Solar and spamming Hurricane, you can get just as much DPS simply by spam Dotting and using SS to cycle through Eclipse and keep up NG.

    Now in my recent heroic Sha attempts it's becoming pretty apparent that Hurricane is very strong for killing the last waves of adds you need to kill in P2. There's generally enough time to cycle through so that you don't have to just sit in Solar and cast Starfire, but you may have to channel AC for a second or two to reach Solar once they are all grouped up (or tab Moonfire on them waiting for SS procs to push you into Solar). You can preplant Shrooms where the adds will run through so this combined with making sure you're in Solar to follow up with a Hurricane I think adds an element of "skill" to the rotation that would gone if everything was streamlined. A lot of people think that Astral Storm fixed the discrepancies between Lunar and Solar AoE and thus removed Solar camping, in actuality the fix for this was allowing us to move through Eclipses much faster (Energy gains doubled outside of Eclipse, Energy granted upon cast finishing, Astral Communion added), since a lot of time we were forced to Solar camp because of the possibility of not making it back to Solar in time and just being screwed for an add wave.

    As I said the very end of P2 Sha is the first time I have noticed all tier a strong desire to be in X eclipse, considering this is one part of one phase of 1 out of 16 bosses, I don't think that is a strong argument to streamline everything. I do think our AoE in general needs some sort of buff. I'm not sure if that should come in the way of Mushrooms or Hurricane, but I think in situations like this where we are able to get shrooms pre planted before Hurricaning we should be near the top for Burst AoE situations and we are more in the middle of the pack. Considering we often can't get shrooms planted at all, our AoE overall becomes pretty awful.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2012-12-17 at 04:02 PM.

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