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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#0000...00000000111111

    The data disagrees no matter how you look at it. After 5.1, Monks are now in line, and disc is the new monk.
    What I will give you is that the distance isn't so humongous that a major nerf is required.
    After all, it wasn't THAT a major buff that put disc into its current position. All that is needed is a few adjustments.
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000111111

    10 man HC pallys beat disc!?!?
    probably because disc hits the absorb cap easily on 10 man with SS.

  2. #22
    I've a great idea as I play Disc Priest in a high end raiding guild as a main.
    I don't think it's overpowered, certainly not "healing", as the vast majority of our "healing", is actually absorbtion.
    We are the only class thats specialised at healing around specific encounters, and it feels much more unique. IMO they should buff other classes to benefit on other classes like Disc do on Spiritbinder HC, Feng HC, Garalon HC etc.

    Disc Isn't overpowered, it's balanced already. Just overpowered on the encounters it SHOULD BE overpowered on, were ABSORBS are required.

  3. #23
    One of the biggest issues they have with balancing it (assuming that is even necessary-Disc is a bit too good right now imo) is that current content has a few mechanics that would be incredibly unforgiving without a Disc working the way it currently does.

    I dislike many of the OP's suggestions but haven't really thought about what I would change.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectitude View Post
    One of the biggest issues they have with balancing it (assuming that is even necessary-Disc is a bit too good right now imo) is that current content has a few mechanics that would be incredibly unforgiving without a Disc working the way it currently does.

    I dislike many of the OP's suggestions but haven't really thought about what I would change.
    I'd perhaps scale down the absorption of Spirit Shell a little, but other than that, that's about it. Are we really overpowered? or just catered to specific fights. I see disc performing absolutely terribly on some encounters, but outstanding on others. It's just a specific speciality catered towards specific fights, Ta'Yak HC (Unseen Strike) for example.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    Go on a fight with unpredictable dmg and disc is in line if not behind other healers. The only thing putting us ahead is SS and without it we have nothing. Our output without it is nothing compared to shamans and monks when they get fixed. The only thing that is op is mtt and rapture.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by arleni1988 View Post
    Disc isent that OP, it's simply ahead of the curve atm.
    If you scann through meters, the difference in healing output between disc, and lets say resto shamy. It's less of a difference than the dps difference between affliction lock and shadow priest.
    Except you bring 4-5 healers to raids, not 16-18-20, and the reason you bring so few healers to a raid is because some healers are OP and can make your raid ignore certain mechanics. Shek'zeer HC, for example, you take 7-8 healers and 3 or 4 of them can be discipline priests simply due to how Spirit Shell totally negates most of the mechanics of the fight.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#0000...00000000111111

    The data disagrees no matter how you look at it. After 5.1, Monks are now in line, and disc is the new monk.
    What I will give you is that the distance isn't so humongous that a major nerf is required.
    After all, it wasn't THAT a major buff that put disc into its current position. All that is needed is a few adjustments.

    --

    Rapture need to return a fixed amount of mana
    Make it not scale with spirit. No other regen tools scale with stats anymore...

    Divine Aegis is far too strong
    Compare it to Holy's echoes of light and sanctuary stance. DA wins: it's always enabled, it's stronger, and it's offering absorbs. Why would anyone want to be holy?
    A nerf to this would solve it, and I suggest simply lowering thee DA bonus from PoH slightly... it doesn't need to be much, but you need to not make DA crush Holy's equivalents. When it does not, disc should be in line with all the other healers.

    Spirit Shell may need some adjusting
    It has a design issue due to stacking so well with all those other cooldowns. Not really sure how to solve that though! In some ways, I also think it is okay as-is; and that this is simply a numbers issue.

    --

    Now if I could go nuts with Priest changes, I would also...... kill chakra, kill the PoH DA bonus, buff CoH/PoH/LW/DH baseline, kill grace, buff Renew/GHeal/Heal/FHeal baseline, redesign Shadowfiend/Mindbender into something more thematically appropriate, make PWS disc only, make renew Holy only, increase the survivability of priests through inner fire/inner will, make holy nova baseline instead of mind sear for healing priests, merge Divine Star and Holy Nova if taking that talent, merge fade and spectral guise and make both baseline, give disc holy's divine insight, kill off that annoying bug that makes healing priests with divine insight proc the shadow version when casting SWP, Kill Heal for disc and slightly lower the cost of GHeal, make Heal completely free of charge for holy, make Prayer of Mending stack, make PWS stack, remove that annoying bug that puts PWS into my mouse cursor if the target has weakened soul, kill hymn of hope off for good, take back the flying levitate ability from monks, add around 10 more interesting healing glyphs, redesign PoH into something that isn't party based somehow, give healing priests the spell haste raid buff since that is so hard to find these days, make phantasm baseline or add a real PVP bonus to the other two talents in that tier, change mana into D3 wizard arcane energy because honestly it just isn't fun to spend the first expansion tier being horribly mana starved, is anyone still reading this anyway, redesign holy's synergy on flash heal and replace it with a spell we actually cast and yeah I could keep going but this is getting a bit too long.

    YEES, oh yes.... Nerdgasm on this post

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by imYemeth View Post
    So people would stack disc for barrier+spirit shell, raid cooldown awesomeness. Turning SS into a 3mins raid CD will make things worse.


    Priests have that spell, it's called circle of healing.
    Group based healing feels outdated, I agree. But another AoE smart heal? Classes feel the same already, turning PoH into yet another chain or circle is a pretty boring wish.

    Fixing disc's numbers is easy. Lower SS by some % or increase CD by 15-30 seconds. Done. SS has no real impact on PvP anyway. People are obsessed with numbers, the moment disc stops dominating world of logs, the discussion about OPness will stop.
    It's definitely a design problem for holy that holy already has Circle of Healing. But that doesn't affect disc. Anyway, CoH should just be deleted for holy, as it already has two short CD healing spells, Holy Word and Prayer of Mending.

    As for giving disc another raid cooldown, I guess SS could just as easily be deleted. But if it was balanced to be weaker than other three minute raid cooldowns, I'm not sure that would be a problem either. PW:B has positioning limitations that most other raid CDs don't, so disc having another raid CD without positioning limits wouldn't be the end of the world.

  9. #29
    Don't exaggerate things people. Disc is not like 4.3 holy paladins or 4.2 druids right now, a small toning is enough.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyxul View Post
    I'd perhaps scale down the absorption of Spirit Shell a little, but other than that, that's about it. Are we really overpowered? or just catered to specific fights. I see disc performing absolutely terribly on some encounters, but outstanding on others. It's just a specific speciality catered towards specific fights, Ta'Yak HC (Unseen Strike) for example.
    Uhh... where are these fights where you see "disc preforming absolutely terribly"? Tsulong, and then only during the day phase? Meanwhile, they're overpowered on every fight with raid-wide burst damage, overpowered on fights with big bonus damage taken/done mechanics, like elegon or HC blade lord, and borderline overpowered on fights where the shields get around healing-preventing mechanics, like on empress or ambershaper... and the rest of the time they "merely" preform extremely well rather than being either outright overpowered or borderline so.

  11. #31
    I guess occasionaly missing Spirit Shell to something like Lei Shi casting Hide instead of Get Away counts as "performing terribly". Of course, a minute later, a different Spirit Shell works just fine and gives you a multi million absorb, so... I guess "balanced" counts as "horrible" in this particular case.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Still won't fix the issues of over-reliance on a group targeted dumb heal and on short CDs. Anyway, my ideas:

    -Give Spirit Shell a three minute CD. Then re-work it so that when used with PoH it divides the absorbs (at some percentage less than 100% and with a cap) among the entire raid. That would make Spirit Shell easier to balance, since it would be filling the same niche as Tranquility and Divine Hymn. It would also fix the QoL timing issues with using Spirit Shell in a twenty-five man raid.

    -Turn Prayer of Healing in to a smart heal that hits the target and the four lowest health raid members within thirty yards. Then nerf the output accordingly, so it's on about the same level as Chain Heal. I know Blizz's rationale for not doing this used to be that they didn't want non-shaman classes spamming an AoE heal, but we're already spamming PoH and it's not really possible to balance as a dumb heal.

    -Return Archangel to its old 15% healing/5% mana version, and change Penance so it doesn't stack Evangelism. Because of its short thirty second CD, Archangel should be a minor bonus, rather than mandatory.
    I really like these ideas personally. I'd like to see Archangel unlinked with Evangelism and become a pure throughput CD at 25% on a 2-3m CD. I think they were on the right track with attempting to turn Holy Nova into Disc's AoE heal during early beta, it would feel a lot less synonymous with Holy (no idea how it would work design-wise though).
    Last edited by Amnesti; 2012-12-17 at 04:06 PM.

  13. #33
    Your premise is flawed. Disc is not overpowered in PvE. It's strong, sure, but not overwhelmingly powerful compared to all other healing classes. Hpallies, Disc priests and MW monks share a pretty equal amount of fights where they're very strong. Disc obviously excels in some fights compared to other healers (predictable damage, like Feng, Blade Lord, Shek'zeer), but that's what the spec is designed for. Look at monks on HM Garalon and Will especially, but they do well on nearly every fight. Hpals don't have quite the "we completely own this" list of fights, but are pretty well represented in many HM fights. It's really just shamans and druids (and holy priests) that need a little love to catch up to the other 3 healers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 11:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    ... and the rest of the time they "merely" preform extremely well rather than being either outright overpowered or borderline so.
    This is exactly how it should be, isn't it? Having a few fights where each class is particularly strong is inevitable without completely identical healing classes. Blade Lord is almost specifically designed for a Disc priest. 1 min CD on Unseen Strike and 1 min CD on Spirit Shell? That's hardly the norm in t14 fights. And for the fights where your class isn't practically designed to excel in, it should still be very viable.

    Unfortunately shamans and druids just don't have those fights where they're particularly strong. That's really what needs to be changed. Disc/pallies/monks are fairly equal right now overall.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Uhh... where are these fights where you see "disc preforming absolutely terribly"? Tsulong, and then only during the day phase? Meanwhile, they're overpowered on every fight with raid-wide burst damage, overpowered on fights with big bonus damage taken/done mechanics, like elegon or HC blade lord, and borderline overpowered on fights where the shields get around healing-preventing mechanics, like on empress or ambershaper
    So you think every class should be really bad at some fights? That sounds like the worst idea ever. Now we need to bench one healer for several fights every time, and bench another for several other fights? It doesn't sound like you've thought this through very well.

    Disc is actually not that overpowered on Elegon. Monks dominate that fight. There's just not enough up-time on Elegon when he has the buffs coupled with big raid damage taken for atonement to really surpass other healers. I get 400k+ atonement heals in the burn phase, but it's over in seconds, and a lot of it is overhealing. This is the same reason why Disc isn't dominating Garalon compared to monks. Even with Wind Lord (assuming you meant Wind Lord not Blade Lord while talking about bonus damage taken/done), on normal mode there's such little phase 2 healing outside of the tank that atonement doesn't really matter, and on HM the damage boost is primarily in bursts and suffers the same fate. The top priests are still primarily relying on PoH and its absorb possibilities for Rain of Blades rather than atonement. So, atonement hasn't been an overwhelming factor in any fight this tier.

  14. #34
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    Your premise is flawed. Disc is not overpowered in PvE. It's strong, sure, but not overwhelmingly powerful compared to all other healing classes. Hpallies, Disc priests and MW monks share a pretty equal amount of fights where they're very strong. Disc obviously excels in some fights compared to other healers (predictable damage, like Feng, Blade Lord, Shek'zeer), but that's what the spec is designed for. Look at monks on HM Garalon and Will especially, but they do well on nearly every fight. Hpals don't have quite the "we completely own this" list of fights, but are pretty well represented in many HM fights. It's really just shamans and druids (and holy priests) that need a little love to catch up to the other 3 healers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 11:23 AM ----------



    This is exactly how it should be, isn't it? Having a few fights where each class is particularly strong is inevitable without completely identical healing classes. Blade Lord is almost specifically designed for a Disc priest. 1 min CD on Unseen Strike and 1 min CD on Spirit Shell? That's hardly the norm in t14 fights. And for the fights where your class isn't practically designed to excel in, it should still be very viable.

    Unfortunately shamans and druids just don't have those fights where they're particularly strong. That's really what needs to be changed. Disc/pallies/monks are fairly equal right now overall.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 11:34 AM ----------


    So you think every class should be really bad at some fights? That sounds like the worst idea ever. Now we need to bench one healer for several fights every time, and bench another for several other fights? It doesn't sound like you've thought this through very well.

    Disc is actually not that overpowered on Elegon. Monks dominate that fight. There's just not enough up-time on Elegon when he has the buffs coupled with big raid damage taken for atonement to really surpass other healers. I get 400k+ atonement heals in the burn phase, but it's over in seconds, and a lot of it is overhealing. This is the same reason why Disc isn't dominating Garalon compared to monks. Even with Wind Lord (assuming you meant Wind Lord not Blade Lord while talking about bonus damage taken/done), on normal mode there's such little phase 2 healing outside of the tank that atonement doesn't really matter, and on HM the damage boost is primarily in bursts and suffers the same fate. The top priests are still primarily relying on PoH and its absorb possibilities for Rain of Blades rather than atonement. So, atonement hasn't been an overwhelming factor in any fight this tier.
    You must raid with shitty shamans... they are the only healers keeping up to me in non predictable fights. I cant comment on hpaly but other then druids I find everyone else is close. Monks will get fixed and be at the top once again then you can all go and complain about them.
    Last edited by Whicker; 2012-12-17 at 05:46 PM.

  15. #35
    I'm not using my own raids for evidence when looking at the larger class balance concerning millions of players, and you really shouldn't, either. Check out raidbots, for instance. Your own experience in raids with a few other healers is really just too small of a sample size to be worth noting. Who knows how good/bad they are, and how good/bad you are? The healer composition affects the performance of each class significantly on a fight by fight basis, too. The fact that you don't even know where holy paladins are right now should tell you something on this subject. Only by looking at thousands of healers on every fight can you get past a few being good/bad and start to see the larger picture of how the classes are really comparing. Given equal gear and skill, shamans shouldn't keep up with you on most fights, so gear and or skill is definitely factoring in there. The same is said for monks that aren't outhealing you on several fights.

  16. #36
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    I dont believe healing parses are the end all be all to measure healers. Healing is never that black and white as simply looking at hps as it is very easy to pad or underheal fights for inflated numbers. Merely having a disc priest in the raid affects other healers numbers and i believe that is one of the reasons for discs "op-ness". I did not mean to offend you or anyone you play with but i merely wanted to point out the fact that all other classes other then druids are close and doing fairly well. What concerns me the most is the idea that disc needs to be nerfed in throughput when the very nature of the spec if meant to deflate co healer hps. Remove every disc priest from raid comps for 2 weeks and you will see higher numbers from all other healers a lot closer if not in line with disc.
    Last edited by Whicker; 2012-12-17 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #37
    On most fights, you'll see the same numbers as long as you add in another healer of another spec to take its place (and if you don't, the same can be said for any spec - healer logs require the absolute minimum number of healers you can get away with for this reason). Disc's absorbs are counted in their throughput on logs. There's a cap on the total amount of healing possible on a fight, and in most fights this tier, disc isn't able to get a disproportionately sized slice because it's not really overpowered. On a few it can because they're exactly what disc is designed for (minimal raid damage, and then sudden burst damage, then back to minimal damage), but on most fights there is enough raid damage that there's plenty to go around, and disc's shields aren't good enough to preempt more than its own fair share of the damage. Thousands of logs support this.

  18. #38
    I expect to see Spirit Shell changed either for how much it caps at per target, scaling from Mastery, or increase the CD slightly by 30 seconds. Spirit Shell is really just too powerful for such a short CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holyxul View Post
    I'd perhaps scale down the absorption of Spirit Shell a little, but other than that, that's about it. Are we really overpowered? or just catered to specific fights. I see disc performing absolutely terribly on some encounters, but outstanding on others. It's just a specific speciality catered towards specific fights, Ta'Yak HC (Unseen Strike) for example.
    Um, what? Where are we performing terribly aside from Tsulong Day phase? Yes, we're weak on Tsulong's Day phase, but go into the Night phase and watch Spirit Shell absorb millions of damage.
    Last edited by notdryad; 2012-12-17 at 11:05 PM.

  19. #39
    Put spirit shell on a 2 min CD and nerf atonement. I love having both in our raid but seriously it's so gamebreaking it allows you to both cheese mechanics and bump the raid DPS by so much. Disc is supposed to have a unique role as a healer and is not meant to be stacked by raids.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Put spirit shell on a 2 min CD and nerf atonement. I love having both in our raid but seriously it's so gamebreaking it allows you to both cheese mechanics and bump the raid DPS by so much. Disc is supposed to have a unique role as a healer and is not meant to be stacked by raids.
    With what Disc has right now, it's top on a couple of fights and fairly middle of the pack in competitiveness on most of them. Where do you think Disc will end up with the changes that you've recommended? Top on zero fights and bottom on quite a few. How is that balanced?

    Atonement spam isn't a good way to produce a solid healing output. Look at the top disc priests. They are doing a little atonement, but it's hardly having a huge impact on the raid's DPS. They're not smite spamming the entire fight because pure atonement healing is inferior to all other healers. Even on fights where it can shine, it's not that great. Uptime on Elegon is minimal, Wind Lord's raid damage is minimal for most of the +dmg times on normal and heroic, so there's nobody but the tank to heal with it. On Garalon there are far better things to do than try to heal through atonement on the legs. There isn't one fight where atonement is primarily used and trumps other classes, so there isn't one fight where a disc priest is doing great DPS unless they're doing poor healing. That's a bad priest.

    Spirit Shell is strong, of course, but only overwhelmingly on several fights with very predictable raid damage bursts. Why is it so bad that Disc gets to shine by doing exactly what it's designed for on a small fraction of the fights in this tier? Yeah, just a few. It's not like every fight is topped by disc priests spamming spirit shell.

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