Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Rukentuts]

I never said it did. In fact, at every stage of this back-and-forth, I've repeated that a UBC law might increase the scope of the tracing data. But that doesn't require a registry to do. Nor would a registry magically do what you're saying without some kind of UBC law. Nor does a UBC law, with or without a registry, mean that a firearm can be traced once it leaves the legal spectrum, which it often does long before it's ever used in a crime.

It makes it easier and cheaper. Holy fuck dude how many times to I need to repeat it?

I'm still not sure why you think it's more accurate. The data is the same, the only question is the centralization or decentralization. It wouldn't be any easier to access, merely more easy to browse, which lends itself to all sorts of potential abuse. The cost, when balanced against the potential for abuse is not an overriding or decisive factor.

Because I work with multiple applications and let me tell you: concurrency is a bitch. You're talking about things you have no idea right now

I'm doing nothing of the sort. You're the one trying to equate firearms with retail packages. There are different characteristics, time frames, concerns, and potentials for abuse between the two. What's good for one sure as heck isn't automatically good for the other.

Tracking an XBox UIN is no different than tracking a firearm UIN. In fact, some of our clients even do the latter. Next.

[PhaelixWW]

It makes it easier and cheaper. Holy fuck dude how many times to I need to repeat it?

I'm not sure what question this is supposed to be in response to. You claimed something that wasn't true, I rebutted it, then you respond with "easier (herp), cheaper (derp)!" When your responses don't match the thing you're quoting, it looks ridiculous.

And I already addressed the easier and cheaper claims, so...

Because I work with multiple applications and let me tell you: concurrency is a bitch. You're talking about things you have no idea right now

Making claims about people you have no idea about, huh?

California has a UBC. I know what I'm talking about.
California has had a handgun registry for decades, and as of 12 days ago even has a long gun registry. I know what I'm talking about.
I've also worked retail and have dealt with product tracking and inventory management. I know what I'm talking about.
I've personally participated in a gun trace, so again, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Concurrency is an issue of overlap. That's not really a problem with firearm traces. The main issues with decentralized databases and concurrency in the CS world is not the same thing as a real world paper inventory system, mandated to be uniform. The NTC is a single accessing authority, and their access boils down to what's ultimately a read-only access. You don't risk the same data integrity issues you might in a typical decentralized computer database with multiple accessors.

So no, an X-Box UIN is not the same as a firearm SN.

[Rukentuts]

I'm not sure what question this is supposed to be in response to. You claimed something that wasn't true, I rebutted it, then you respond with "easier (herp), cheaper (derp)!" When your responses don't match the thing you're quoting, it looks ridiculous.

And I already addressed the easier and cheaper claims, so...

You haven't addressed shit. You've pointed to things not applicable, then you just dismiss my career because you don't understand it; even deliberately so.

Making claims about people you have no idea about, huh?

Oh irony.

California has a UBC. I know what I'm talking about.
California has had a handgun registry for decades, and as of 12 days ago even has a long gun registry. I know what I'm talking about.
I've also worked retail and have dealt with product tracking and inventory management. I know what I'm talking about.
I've personally participated in a gun trace, so again, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Concurrency is an issue of overlap. That's not really a problem with firearm traces. The main issues with decentralized databases and concurrency in the CS world is not the same thing as a real world paper inventory system, mandated to be uniform. The NTC is a single accessing authority, and their access boils down to what's ultimately a read-only access. You don't risk the same data integrity issues you might in a typical decentralized computer database with multiple accessors.

So no, an X-Box UIN is not the same as a firearm SN.

Rereading your previous posts, I'd say otherwise. If you did you actually realize the benefits UINs bring. The only argument against this system is "zomg big gubmit bad". There are only benefits.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Rereading your previous posts, I'd say otherwise. If you did you actually realize the benefits UINs bring. The only argument against this system is "zomg big gubmit bad". There are only benefits.

Something something [slippery slope] something something gun confiscations something something dirty liberals?

[PhaelixWW]

You haven't addressed shit. You've pointed to things not applicable, then you just dismiss my career because you don't understand it; even deliberately so.

I didn't dismiss your career, I just said that whatever logic you thought crossed over from your claimed field of expertise into the field of firearm traces didn't really translate appropriately.

Oh irony.

Oh, yes, it wouldn't be a Rukentuts argument if you didn't try to falsely play the irony card.

Rereading your previous posts, I'd say otherwise. If you did you actually realize the benefits UINs bring.

Try re-reading them a third time, then. I never argued against the benefits of UINs in general. I'm saying that treating firearms and firearm serial numbers like Xbox's and Xbox UINs is a mistake, because the two systems are not completely analogous. Furthermore, the benefits conferred by a UIN are already in place via the existing recordkeeping requirements and tracing procedures, without the need to centralize the database.

You keep implying that I'm against serial numbers, when I've repeated, ad nauseam, that I'm merely against the centralization of the data. I have yet to see you enumerate the ways a centralized system would be more accurate, in the specific field of firearms.

Oh, I forgot to mention one other piece of experience I've had. I've also had experience centralizing a set of disparate databases. Multiple departments of a company deciding to send all their records to a central warehouse, and I, for my sins, was tasked with merging the various files into a working database that all could access and use going forward. Yes, it was a nightmare, mostly because the different departments utilized different organizational structures and overlapping categories.

The difference between that and firearms recordkeeping is that firearm records are federally mandated to be uniform. On top of that, the ATF sends agents out to audit the records in order to maintain compliance.

The only argument against this system is "zomg big gubmit bad".

A registry really confers no meaningful benefits to the task of reducing crime to outweigh the potential for abuse. The benefits you've listed (aside from accuracy, which you haven't been able to support) are secondary benefits that don't touch on the ability of the existing system to accomplish its primary job of assisting law enforcement agencies.

[Rukentuts]

I didn't dismiss your career, I just said that whatever logic you thought crossed over from your claimed field of expertise into the field of firearm traces didn't really translate appropriately.

Oh you tell it.

Oh, yes, it wouldn't be a Rukentuts argument if you didn't try to falsely play the irony card.

Not surprised.

Try re-reading them a third time, then. I never argued against the benefits of UINs in general. I'm saying that treating firearms and firearm serial numbers like Xbox's and Xbox UINs is a mistake, because the two systems are not completely analogous. Furthermore, the benefits conferred by a UIN are already in place via the existing recordkeeping requirements and tracing procedures, without the need to centralize the database.

You keep implying that I'm against serial numbers, when I've repeated, ad nauseam, that I'm merely against the centralization of the data. I have yet to see you enumerate the ways a centralized system would be more accurate, in the specific field of firearms.

Oh, I forgot to mention one other piece of experience I've had. I've also had experience centralizing a set of disparate databases. Multiple departments of a company deciding to send all their records to a central warehouse, and I, for my sins, was tasked with merging the various files into a working database that all could access and use going forward. Yes, it was a nightmare, mostly because the different departments utilized different organizational structures and overlapping categories.

The difference between that and firearms recordkeeping is that firearm records are federally mandated to be uniform. On top of that, the ATF sends agents out to audit the records in order to maintain compliance.

Yeah, you really don't get Big Data.

A registry really confers no meaningful benefits to the task of reducing crime to outweigh the potential for abuse. The benefits you've listed (aside from accuracy, which you haven't been able to support) are secondary benefits that don't touch on the ability of the existing system to accomplish its primary job of assisting law enforcement agencies.

Lawl, I love how you just declare there won't be benefits, whereas Big Data has saved billions to enterprises worldwide.

What abuse? Details.

[PhaelixWW]

Lawl, I love how you just declare there won't be benefits, whereas Big Data has saved billions to enterprises worldwide.

Your reading comprehension skills need to be worked on, Rukentuts.

I said no meaningful benefit to the primary function of reducing crime via tracing. I said the secondary benefit of cost saving was not enough to outweigh the potential for the abuse of privacy that a centralized registry makes possible.

And this is not a case of big data.

[Rukentuts]

Your reading comprehension skills need to be worked on, Rukentuts.

Physician heal thy self. See below:

I said no meaningful benefit to the primary function of reducing crime via tracing. I said the secondary benefit of cost saving was not enough to outweigh the potential for the abuse of privacy that a centralized registry makes possible.

And this is not a case of big data.

You think, that the tracking of every firearm from creation to destruction isn't big data? Information on suppliers, vendors, etc.? Laughable. I said it once and I'll say it again. This is my career. You're just demonstrating you're a novice that doesn't know what they're talking about when it comes to systems such as that I propose.

You also didn't elaborate on "abuse". Perhaps your reading comprehension could use some work.

[jugzilla]

Physician heal thy self. See below:

You also didn't elaborate on "abuse". Perhaps your reading comprehension could use some work.

Here's some pretty good abuse that has happened.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2362530.html

It's kind of hard to expect him to prove abuse of a system that isn't in place. If anyone would, charges of baseless attacks and fear-mongering would be a few keystrokes away im sure.

edit: fixed link

[Rukentuts]

Here's some pretty good abuse that has happened.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2362530.html

It's kind of hard to expect him to prove abuse of a system that isn't in place. If anyone would, charges of baseless attacks and fear-mongering would be a few keystrokes away im sure.

edit: fixed link

Tell me how you can get locations when they're in another table, encrypted. There's a reason people try to get your SSN from you and not from the government.

[jugzilla]

Tell me how you can get locations when they're in another table, encrypted. There's a reason people try to get your SSN from you and not from the government.

Freedom of information act. Edward Snowdens. If you aren't going to read, at least be a little creative.

You remind me of this quote

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." - Abraham Maslow

[PhaelixWW]

You think, that the tracking of every firearm from creation to destruction isn't big data? Information on suppliers, vendors, etc.? Laughable.

It's a system that currently works just fine in a mostly paper database, based on a uniformity of data collected, and the requirement of a single record being needed at a time, requested by a single authority. It's not a complex system. It's large, but relatively easy to manage.

You also didn't elaborate on "abuse". Perhaps your reading comprehension could use some work.

I comprehended your statement just fine. I just neglected to derail this discussion into a tangential topic that's been covered many times ITT. The types of potential abuse are well documented, and are the reason that a national registry has been against the law since 1986.

[Rukentuts]

It's a system that currently works just fine in a mostly paper database, based on a uniformity of data collected, and the requirement of a single record being needed at a time, requested by a single authority. It's not a complex system. It's large, but relatively easy to manage.

Easy to manage. LOL! Tell me when you actually develop one of these systems. Your posts are so off the mark I just spit up my pop. Tell me, what index(es) would you use for a table of billions of records?

I comprehended your statement just fine. I just neglected to derail this discussion into a tangential topic that's been covered many times ITT. The types of potential abuse are well documented, and are the reason that a national registry has been against the law since 1986.

they're so well documented you still have no example. Surprising, not.

[jugzilla]

Easy to manage. LOL! Tell me when you actually develop one of these systems. Your posts are so off the mark I just spit up my pop. Tell me, what index(es) would you use for a table of billions of records?

they're so well documented you still have no example. Surprising, not.

Oh hilarious, in your own words Rukentuts...."irony"

You really don't bother to read what anyone says do you? He was talking about the current system, the words "mostly paper" would have tipped you off I figure. And he told you why he didn't give you an example, remember that? I fell for your trick and gave you one, but you've already forgotten.

[Rukentuts]

You really don't bother to read what anyone says do you?

I do, but to be honest I really don't give much intellectual weight to it.

He was talking about the current system, the words "mostly paper" would have tipped you off I figure.

Which isn't like what I'm proposing.

And he told you why he didn't give you an example, remember that?

Nope. But keep referring to shit that doesn't exist.

I fell for your trick and gave you one, but you've already forgotten.

So repeal the freedom of information act. It isn't "abuse".

I look forward to debunking more intellectual dishonesty.

[ugotownd]

Tell me how you can get locations when they're in another table, encrypted. There's a reason people try to get your SSN from you and not from the government.

Tell me how Target and now other stores are in so much shit for getting hacked and losing customers cc info, names, addresses, phone numbers, SSN numbers and more. I'm pretty sure there alot more involved then anything you work on. As for a federal registry we see how well the Obamacare website worked out didn't we.

[Rukentuts]

Tell me how Target and now other stores are in so much shit for getting hacked and losing customers cc info, names, addresses, phone numbers, SSN numbers and more. I'm pretty sure there alot more involved then anything you work on.

Target lost information due to a vulnerability in the POS system, more notably on the devices into which you insert your CCs. Someone installed malware onto them. It would be up to individual firms to secure their own input devices, however, there's nothing in the ballpark as sensitive as CC#s in my idea. So faulty premise aside, this isn't applicable.

As for a federal registry we see how well the Obamacare website worked out didn't we.

You're comparing a hardware overload to a back-end data breach? What?

People need to stop attempting to tech when they don't know what they're talking about.

[jugzilla]

So repeal the freedom of information act. It isn't "abuse".

Oh this is rich...you really dont think its abuse to create a website that lets the whole world see the names, addresses, and what firearms they have? Repeal FIFO? you aren't even trying to be serious.

Target lost information due to a vulnerability in the POS system, more notably on the devices into which you insert your CCs. Someone installed malware onto them. It would be up to individual firms to secure their own input devices, however, there's nothing in the ballpark as sensitive as CC#s in my idea. So faulty premise aside, this isn't applicable.
You're comparing a hardware overload to a back-end data breach? What?

People need to stop attempting to tech when they don't know what they're talking about.

And back into your comfort zone. Now if only you can keep the thread derailed in this direction, you can win gun control using only your superior knowledge of data structures. You won't even have to really read any of the opposing viewpoints will you!

[ugotownd]

Target lost information due to a vulnerability in the POS system, more notably on the devices into which you insert your CCs. Someone installed malware onto them.
You're comparing a hardware overload to a back-end data breach? What?

People need to stop attempting to tech when they don't know what they're talking about.

So you don't think people could hack your gun registry. I mean they hack gov shit all the time just takes them longer. It's bad enough your info is saved all over it doesn't need to be in a list with all the guns you own and where.

The Obamacare website issues was more than a hardware overload lol. Peoples info is still being sent to the wrong places or not at all. We won't even mention the security holes in it.

[Rukentuts]

So you don't think people could hack your gun registry.

You can hack any system. The question would be for what motive?

I mean they hack gov shit all the time just takes them longer. It's bad enough your info is saved all over it doesn't need to be in a list with all the gun you own and where.

I think it does.

The Obamacare website issues was more than a hardware overload lol. Peoples info is still being sent to the wrong places or not at all. We won't even mention the security holes in it.

So we have either a shoddy back-end, or a mal-configured deployment. Probably why they canned the consulting firm and brought in Accenture.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh this is rich...you really dont think its abuse to create a website that lets the whole world see the names, addresses, and what firearms they have? Repeal FIFO? you aren't even trying to be serious.

Yes, I'm not being serious at all.

And back into your comfort zone. Now if only you can keep the thread derailed in this direction, you can win gun control using only your superior knowledge of data structures. You won't even have to really read any of the opposing viewpoints will you!

What would that be, tracking products to see where loss occurs? That's how this all started. But damn, we can't a system capable of pinpointing exactly where losses are occurring!

This is why I don't get most pro-gunners. You really can't compromise with them.