Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[ellieg]

Not sure exactly what the resolution to this would be, but I believe that something defiantly need to be done to address this epidemic. It is out of control with the senseless gun violence that is going on right now. I am from Michigan, and we just recently we had mass shooting from a Uber driver that killed 6 people, for apparently no reason. I think that to resolve this issue, yes I think that better gun control is needed; Sorry but who seriously needs an assault rifle to go hunting? However, I also think that better social programs to help address mental illness issues is also very much needed as well. There is not just one single 'fix' this this issue and will take a lot of change in the laws, and also a lot more availability of mental illness programs to even begin to touch growing issue. Just my two cents....

What law would you make that would have stopped the uber driver from killing those 6 people?

[Dystemper]

Not sure exactly what the resolution to this would be, but I believe that something defiantly need to be done to address this epidemic. It is out of control with the senseless gun violence that is going on right now. I am from Michigan, and we just recently we had mass shooting from a Uber driver that killed 6 people, for apparently no reason. I think that to resolve this issue, yes I think that better gun control is needed; Sorry but who seriously needs an assault rifle to go hunting? However, I also think that better social programs to help address mental illness issues is also very much needed as well. There is not just one single 'fix' this this issue and will take a lot of change in the laws, and also a lot more availability of mental illness programs to even begin to touch growing issue. Just my two cents....

A lot of what you have said has already been addressed much further back in the thread
Such as Gun violence has been decreasing for quite a while now
and Gun homicides are at a 30 year low, despite record numbers of gun sales and new gun owners.

[Breccia]

Hell, I'm fine with corporal punishment for negligent parents.

Have at it.

Couldn't find that exactly, but here's a situation where a toddler shot both of his parents with a carelessly stored gun. Including shooting his father in the ass.

It's funny, because they lived.

[PhaelixWW]

And in a case of a search warrant this law would be enforcable.

So in the extremely rare case where the person has already done something else that warranted a search, they might be found out, but as Svifnymr pointed out, perhaps not even prosecuted.

That's why I said "basically never" instead of simply "never"

Crimes that are only ever even found out about in <1% of cases, and which can never be discovered without the help of some pretty fortuitous external factors are close enough to never enforced to be considered unenforceable.

[Mayhem]

And how would they get their search warrant? "hey judge, I believe that this guy might not be locking up his guns at night, let me go through his house just to check."

I never said a warrant because of this law, now did i?

[ellieg]

I never said a warrant because of this law, now did i?

I suppose you did not. Im just not understanding the point of this law if all you want to do is tack it onto other things. Like you search his home for CP or something, don't find it, but do find that his gun wasn't locked up. You sure got him.

[Mayhem]

So in the extremely rare case where the person has already done something else that warranted a search, they might be found out, but as Svifnymr pointed out, perhaps not even prosecuted.

That's why I said "basically never" instead of simply "never"

Crimes that are only ever even found out about in <1% of cases, and which can never be discovered without the help of some pretty fortuitous external factors are close enough to never enforced to be considered unenforceable.

Hey, that´s fair, that doesn´t mean people wouldn´t follow it.

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I suppose you did not. Im just not understanding the point of this law if all you want to do is tack it onto other things. Like you search his home for CP or something, don't find it, but do find that his gun wasn't locked up. You sure got him.

The point would be to not let guns fall in the hands of others than the gun owner, like kids, friends, asshats.

[PhaelixWW]

What law would you make that would have stopped the uber driver from killing those 6 people?

The one where a psychiatrist has to test you every day in order for you to keep your firearm(s).

[ellieg]

The one where a psychiatrist has to test you every day in order for you to keep your firearm(s).

Lol exactly. No one wants to see anyone do what that uber driver did. The point is, you cant just make a law that completely restricts everyone just to stop a few shootings. There is no easy solution.

[Dystemper]

Criminal intent really can not be regulated.

[Daelak]

I have had guns for 40 years, not once have they ever broke out and committed a crime. They must be defective

And in your 40 years you have seen a precipitous increase in the number of firearms in circulation in the US as well as the evolution of the firearm industry and their trade groups from hunting and sport shooting to a business model predicated on the fear of government tyranny, economic and societal collapse, and being a victim of violent crime. They have effectively manipulated the American public and congress in order to keep gun sales high.

[Breccia]

There is no easy solution.

I think everyone agrees there are no easy solutions. I think people disagree as to whether we try hard solutions. For example: random gun inspections. If we can drop the Health Department into a restaurant whenever we feel like it, because they are licensed to serve food to the public, is it that much of a stretch to have your gun inspected once every year? I mean, how many people die from eating poorly-made food every year? About three thousand, right? And that's why you need a license to serve food the public, right? Alcohol, same deal. And George Washington himself would probably approve.

Incidentally, food poisoning and drunk driving kill way more people than firearm accidents. Aaaaaaaaaand this would require firearm registration, which is a whole different story.

[PhaelixWW]

On a side note, for all those people (PRE, I'm looking at you) who like to lump suicides in with homicides when talking about gun control, I'd like to point out that while suicides have steadily risen since 2000 (up 29% since then), the percentage of those suicides in which a firearm was used continues to drop.

In fact, the percentage of suicides using a firearm was fairly steady between 57-61% from 1981 (the beginning of the available data) through 1999. Starting in 2000, and even as the rate of suicide started climbing, the percentage use of firearms has dropped just as steadily, to the point that 2014 (most recent data) was the first year in which the use of firearms in suicide fell under 50%.

So despite the "proliferation" of firearms over the last decade and a half, people are increasingly choosing other methods to commit suicide.

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If we can drop the Health Department into a restaurant whenever we feel like it, because they are licensed to serve food to the public, is it that much of a stretch to have your gun inspected once every year?

That's more of a case of public vs. private. Does the health department stop by private home kitchens to do the same kind of inspections? No. But the ATF does do routine unannounced audits of firearm retailers and manufacturers.

Or perhaps retailer vs. consumer is a better comparison.

[Mayhem]

On a side note, for all those people (PRE, I'm looking at you) who like to lump suicides in with homicides when talking about gun control, I'd like to point out that while suicides have steadily risen since 2000 (up 29% since then), the percentage of those suicides in which a firearm was used continues to drop.

In fact, the percentage of suicides using a firearm was fairly steady between 57-61% from 1981 (the beginning of the available data) through 1999. Starting in 2000, and even as the rate of suicide started climbing, the percentage use of firearms has dropped just as steadily, to the point that 2014 (most recent data) was the first year in which the use of firearms in suicide fell under 50%.

So despite the "proliferation" of firearms over the last decade and a half, people are increasingly choosing other methods to commit suicide.

Ok, i don´t know if you have other statistics that show something else but according to GSS household gun ownership is in steady decline since the 90s. The average number of guns a gun owner owns however almost doubled since then.

[Dystemper]

And in your 40 years you have seen a precipitous increase in the number of firearms in circulation in the US as well as the evolution of the firearm industry and their trade groups from hunting and sport shooting to a business model predicated on the fear of government tyranny, economic and societal collapse, and being a victim of violent crime. They have effectively manipulated the American public and congress in order to keep gun sales high.

LMAO
Get some help

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I think everyone agrees there are no easy solutions. I think people disagree as to whether we try hard solutions. For example: random gun inspections. If we can drop the Health Department into a restaurant whenever we feel like it, because they are licensed to serve food to the public, is it that much of a stretch to have your gun inspected once every year? I mean, how many people die from eating poorly-made food every year? About three thousand, right? And that's why you need a license to serve food the public, right? Alcohol, same deal. And George Washington himself would probably approve.

Incidentally, food poisoning and drunk driving kill way more people than firearm accidents. Aaaaaaaaaand this would require firearm registration, which is a whole different story.

about 100 million Americans own Firearms. Tell us how this will be accomplished

[Breccia]

about 100 million Americans own Firearms. Tell us how this will be accomplished

If you sent two-man teams into one house per 15 minutes during normal business hours (or some other 40-hour work week scenario), it would take 25,000 ATF agents. Assuming an annual salary of $50,000 it would cost about one tenth of one percent of the ATF's budget. The "how" is actually the easy part. And it creates jobs!

EDIT: God damn decimal places. It would take the entire ATF budget. Which isn't huge by national budget standards...but would be a massive move. My bad.

But in all seriousness, I'm not convinced sending cops door-to-door to check on guns will result in 100% peaceful cooperation. It was just a theory. Food and alcohol served in public is still way more important.

[PhaelixWW]

Ok, i don´t know if you have other statistics that show something else but according to GSS household gun ownership is in steady decline since the 90s. The average number of guns a gun owner owns however almost doubled since then.

Actually, according to the GSS, householld gun ownership is pretty much the same since 2000. The 2000 estimated percentage was actually lower than the 2012 percentage. And the 2014 percentage is pretty close once you factor out the non-respondants. (32.9% in 2000, 33.8% in 2012, 32.0% in 2014)

So my point about the 2000-2014 era remains.

[Mayhem]

about 100 million Americans own Firearms. Tell us how this will be accomplished

That´s uhm, about 30% gun ownership rate. That´s comparable to other countries who manage to do that.

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Actually, according to the GSS, householld gun ownership is pretty much the same since 2000. The 2000 estimated percentage was actually lower than the 2012 percentage. And the 2014 percentage is pretty close once you factor out the non-respondants. (32.9% in 2000, 33.8% in 2012, 32.0% in 2014)

So my point about the 2000-2014 era remains.

Ok same numbers, what exactly has the proliferation part to do with any of this?

[Daelak]

LMAO
Get some help

Seems as though you have nothing to refute what I said, it's not your fault, it's pretty evident that this is the case for today's firearm manufacturers.

[Ghostpanther]

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What makes you think that anything would change for you?

If you require all firearms to be registered, then it would impact me to the point it would be something not needed. Unnecessary procedure.:P I have the right to have a firearm and to carry it. No other thing needs to be done for me to exercise that right. Of course some restrictions can exist in some scenarios. Personally I agree with the states which require no permit needed to carry a firearm ether openly or concealed such as Vermont and Kansas have. Those are pure examples of exercising your right as the Constitution intended.

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If you sent two-man teams into one house per 15 minutes during normal business hours (or some other 40-hour work week scenario), it would take 25,000 ATF agents. Assuming an annual salary of $50,000 it would cost about one tenth of one percent of the ATF's budget. The "how" is actually the easy part. And it creates jobs!

EDIT: God damn decimal places. It would take the entire ATF budget. Which isn't huge by national budget standards...but would be a massive move. My bad.

But in all seriousness, I'm not convinced sending cops door-to-door to check on guns will result in 100% peaceful cooperation. It was just a theory. Food and alcohol served in public is still way more important.

Yep. Back in the 1930's the FBI proposed all firearms should be registered. Then they dropped that idea saying it would be impossible to enforce. So I guess this would be one law if enacted, there may be a lot of otherwise law abiding citizens who would not obey it. Pretty much like the mess the government created during prohibition here. It did not work.