Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Rocko9]

Saying that we need guns just feeds into the fear mongering that the US is known for.

Around every corner is a murderer, rapist, thief. So we must have guns to save us.

We have no reason to need assault rifles, we have no reason to need an assault anything. Our guns should be limited to standard revolvers, rifles and shotguns. On top of that the background check should include a psych evaluation and the requirement that you purchase a gun vault.

There are only 4 million NRA members, in all honesty that isn't enough to swing victory in every state, this is a nation of 300 million people, this is not even 2% of the populace that is holding us hostage for this burning desire to own guns.

I am all for restricting guns, if they were the solution to crime and protection those problems would have gone away in the days following the revolutionary war.

You know nothing of guns, or the legal process of buying them, yet you want to get rid of them. Great.

[Porcell]

Saying that we need guns just feeds into the fear mongering that the US is known for.
Around every corner is a murderer, rapist, thief. So we must have guns to save us.

This isn't the mindset of a gun owner. This is what anti-gun folks THINK is the mindset of a gun owner in order to ridicule them, and say "look how loony these people are!". I carry a gun for the same reason I have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers; rather have one if I need one than not have one. It doesn't mean I live in fear of a fire breaking out around every corner. Most gun owners will NEVER fire their weapon at another person. Most gun owners will tell you that they never want to have to pull their gun. I carry because it is my right as a free man to own such items that can assure my personal defense.

We have no reason to need assault rifles, we have no reason to need an assault anything. Our guns should be limited to standard revolvers, rifles and shotguns. On top of that the background check should include a psych evaluation and the requirement that you purchase a gun vault.

Ignorance of guns is what leads to the opinion stated in the first sentence. First, I'll forgive the incorrect terminology (an assault rifle is a select-fire rifle capable of burst or fully automatic fire). But a semi-automatic rifle (like an AR or an AK) is a GREAT weapon for home self defense. They are easy to use, easy to fire, easy to aim, have very very little recoil, the ammunition has good power but does not over penetrate.

There are only 4 million NRA members, in all honesty that isn't enough to swing victory in every state, this is a nation of 300 million people, this is not even 2% of the populace that is holding us hostage for this burning desire to own guns.

I don't know what is leading you to believe that it's only NRA members who have a "burning desire" for guns. There are somewhere over 50 million households (or well over 50 million people) in the US who own firearms. There are also those who don't own guns but would still be sympathetic to the cause (or at least support liberty and the constitution).

I am all for restricting guns, if they were the solution to crime and protection those problems would have gone away in the days following the revolutionary war.

Interest supposition. Also an oversimplification of what causes violence and crime in the US. Crime and violence and killings still exist in countries with strict firearm bans. (Not that I want to in any way start comparing countries. This is merely as a rebuttal your implication that restricting guns would be a solution to crime.)

[Deadvolcanoes]

I still don't see how this is doing anything to prevent crime. I'm all for universal background checks, but I don't follow how people think it's going to be enforced/used by anyone who isn't already participating in good faith.

Right now private sales don't require background checks. Criminals know this, and see it as an easy way of obtaining firearms (rather than going through the trouble of straw purchasing or stealing).

Law abiding citizens are unknowingly selling guns to criminals. If we require background checks on their purchases, then this will stop.

Criminals are already willingly, or unknowingly, submitting to background checks through FFL's and being stopped. The same will occur with private sales.

[Incredibale]

Oh boy, I sure believe this coming from somebody with that kind of avatar.

I dunno, maybe I have this avatar because Obama has associated with communists and people who admire communists? Your offense is duly noted I guess.

[Grizzly Willy]

I dunno, maybe I have this avatar because Obama has associated with communists and people who admire communists? Your offense is duly noted I guess.

I find it odd that somebody would consider him a communist when his policies are anything but.

[Tinykong]

Right now private sales don't require background checks. Criminals know this, and see it as an easy way of obtaining firearms (rather than going through the trouble of straw purchasing or stealing).

Law abiding citizens are unknowingly selling guns to criminals. If we require background checks on their purchases, then this will stop.

Criminals are already willingly, or unknowingly, submitting to background checks through FFL's and being stopped. The same will occur with private sales.

How would this work, the seller would have to get the contact information, run the background check at their expense, and then only continue with the sale once it was okay'd?

I've never bought a gun from a private party, so I have no idea how it works.

I certainly would be pretty damn nervous taking a known quantity of money to a transaction with a person I didn't know who would knowingly have a gun, but thats just me.

[Payday]

Is that going to prevent people from doing it? How is anyone even going to know other than some sort of undercover sting?

I guess that's the point I was trying to make, is that a universal background check system is only really going to be used by people who participate in good faith. If you want to sell illegal guns illegally, how does it stop you?

Is "participating in good faith" the new law abiding citizen?

2 questions for you:

1) Would you sell a gun thru private sale to someone without performing a background check on them? (under current law)
2) With new universal background check measure in place, would you sell a gun thru private sale without performing a background check on them?

[Deadvolcanoes]

How would this work, the seller would have to get the contact information, run the background check at their expense, and then only continue with the sale once it was okay'd?

I've never bought a gun from a private party, so I have no idea how it works.

I certainly would be pretty damn nervous taking a known quantity of money to a transaction with a person I didn't know who would knowingly have a gun, but thats just me.

I'm not exactly sure. Possibly through an FFL for a small fee, or through the local police department. There would have to be documentation most likely.

I bought my firearm from a friend. Filled out a few transfer forms and registered it with the town. No background check for the purchase, but I did get one for my pistol permit.

[Payday]

I'm not exactly sure. Possibly through an FFL for a small fee, or through the local police department. There would have to be documentation most likely.

I bought my firearm from a friend. Filled out a few transfer forms and registered it with the town. No background check for the purchase, but I did get one for my pistol permit.

To my knowledge, running the check thru a FFL dealer is what is being proposed for private sales. This is getting some heat from the NRA, as they are saying it is unreasonable to force sellers to travel the distance to the dealer, pay the fee, etc.

The data I saw yesterday showed that with the ~60,000 FFL dealers in the US, somewhere around 98% of the population lives within 10 miles (on average) of a dealer. For comparison, there are currently ~35,000 US Post Office's in the country. The fee would be absorbed in the cost of the sale, as with all other regulated private sales.

[Incredibale]

I find it odd that somebody would consider him a communist when his policies are anything but.

Ok, ok, you got me there. He's an Obamunist, not a communist.

I mean, palling around with shady characters like commies/terrorists isn't a bad thing, right? Especially when one of them (cough Ayers) belonged to an organization which spoke of putting dissenting americans in re-education camps and killing them after a communist takeover?

[Eroginous]

Ok, ok, you got me there. He's an Obamunist, not a communist.

I mean, palling around with shady characters like commies/terrorists isn't a bad thing, right? Especially when one of them (cough Ayers) belonged to an organization which spoke of putting dissenting americans in re-education camps and killing them after a communist takeover?

/tinfoil hat?

Right now private sales don't require background checks. Criminals know this, and see it as an easy way of obtaining firearms (rather than going through the trouble of straw purchasing or stealing).

Law abiding citizens are unknowingly selling guns to criminals. If we require background checks on their purchases, then this will stop.

Criminals are already willingly, or unknowingly, submitting to background checks through FFL's and being stopped. The same will occur with private sales.

Okay, so let's assume for a moment that your universal background checks get passed into federal law. What then? Who's going to make sure people are running background checks on their private gun sales? Furthermore, who's going to be doing them who wasn't doing them before? More importantly, how many people are going to continue doing things like they have been?

I'm failing to see how your proposal is going to have any more than a negligible impact.

[smelltheglove]

Obamunist

sounds legit

[Rocko9]

Is "participating in good faith" the new law abiding citizen?

2 questions for you:

1) Would you sell a gun thru private sale to someone without performing a background check on them? (under current law)
2) With new universal background check measure in place, would you sell a gun thru private sale without performing a background check on them?

1) Yes
2) No, I would not violate the law

[Svifnymr]

I'm not exactly sure. Possibly through an FFL for a small fee, or through the local police department. There would have to be documentation most likely.

There's really no need for anything more than an online form, IMO. You put in the buyers name, birthdate, race, sex, drivers license number and it gives you "yes" "no" or "see a dealer" if there's a complication. You then print it out in duplicate, fill in seller info and gun info (to prevent it from being a registry) and each of you gets a copy. If the gun is traced, they come to seller, he shows them form, they go to buyer. Don't have access to online computer with printer? Phone number to call it in, with some way to get a form, say mailed to you or at the post office or something.

There are lots of ways to implement it, but enforcement will be an issue, and I'm sure however they implement it, they'll mess something up.

[Incredibale]

Incredibale's factual statement and link contradict my world views, so a petty insult should suffice as a refutation

Brilliant.

Infracted

[Svifnymr]

1) Would you sell a gun thru private sale to someone without performing a background check on them? (under current law)

One issue is that currently, in most jurisdictions, there is no method by which a private person CAN do a background check. (Geared towards firearm purchase, as opposed to a general background check which may not have the same information.)

---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 07:27 PM ----------

Looking into the 40% statistic, it turns out that it's from a 1994 survey. The sample size for that statistic is only 251, which hardly seems like a credible data pool.

But the question was still about purchases made in 1993-94, so I guess it doesn't include older purchases.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...myth-john-lott
Lott covers most of the problems with the actual survey & results.

[Payday]

2) No, I would not violate the law

Great! You and the countless other law abiding gun owners would be doing a great service to your fellow Americans by helping to keep firearms out of criminal hands. You efforts would be commended all across the land.

One issue is that currently, in most jurisdictions, there is no method by which a private person CAN do a background check. (Geared towards firearm purchase, as opposed to a general background check which may not have the same information.)

I agree that this is a problem. That could all change next month if they pass universal background check legislation. They could instead make access to these checks voluntary somehow, and private sellers could request them out of good faith like you suggested in your 2nd post. The only problem with that is:

1) Yes

[Porcell]

One issue is that currently, in most jurisdictions, there is no method by which a private person CAN do a background check. (Geared towards firearm purchase, as opposed to a general background check which may not have the same information.)

If you mean "on their own" then sure. But you can go to any FFL -right now- and have them run a background check for you for a sale for like $10, if you felt so inclined to do so.

[Svifnymr]

If you mean "on their own" then sure. But you can go to any FFL -right now- and have them run a background check for you for a sale for like $10, if you felt so inclined to do so.

$10 is an arbitrary amount for a service. It varies by area of course, but most gun shops around here are $30 for a transfer. Just doing a quick background check may be less, but at a busy gun show they're not going to stop what they're doing to throw you a bone at $10.

As I've said before, I only ever sold through a dealer (shipping or consignment) or to a buddy, just saying that there are hindrances to the process. It may not seem like much on the outside, but inconveniences like that deter folks from doing stuff.

[Porcell]

$10 is an arbitrary amount for a service. It varies by area of course, but most gun shops around here are $30 for a transfer. Just doing a quick background check may be less, but at a busy gun show they're not going to stop what they're doing to throw you a bone at $10.

As I've said before, I only ever sold through a dealer (shipping or consignment) or to a buddy, just saying that there are hindrances to the process. It may not seem like much on the outside, but inconveniences like that deter folks from doing stuff.

It's funny, I have this weird sense of Deja Vu that you and I have had this conversation before. Probably have, somewhere in the last 700 pages.

Anyway, I'm not really for an expansion of background checks.