Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Rukentuts]

I am, and always have been, talking about the current method of firearm traces. And despite my efforts to reiterate that this is what I'm talking about, I have the feeling that you're in la-la land and trying to talk about something completely different.

Your apparent obtuseness and attempted obfuscation certainly indicate thus.

My obtuseness? Or your lack of evidence of the actual system?

Your breath can continue to be bated. I've said several times that I refuse to run down a tangent argument that I feel certain you'll attempt to start if I enumerate the potential abuses. Said abuses aren't likely, especially in the short run, but the threat is unable to be mitigated once the data is compiled, and the potentials tend to accumulate in the long run, so it behooves us to consider them as important to resist except as a last resort. And this is not a last resort.

Government monitoring vs. privacy is hardly a new or remotely settled debate.

Aw, you make a bullshit claim with no evidence. I'm shocked.

What I'm not shocked about is the level of deliberate intellectual dishonesty of pro-gunners in this thread.

[cuafpr]

Nice, your second amendment just killed a dude in a movie theatre for sending a text. You must love your country. How does it feel to be insane?

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The article is rather silly. And the last point especially is doubly so. Hunters in Germany buy weapons, they have licenses, they don't just find them growing on trees. So there are hunting shops, big deal. But there is no group wanking over weapons, nor is there some religious belief that weapons are good or that everyone should own one. There's a level of insanity going on in the US that doesn't compare to anything else.

whoa a gun got up and walked into a theater and killed someone??? or did someone that slipped threw the cracks in the laws we already have and a failed mental health system use a tool to kill someone?

[Rukentuts]

whoa a gun got up and walked into a theater and killed someone??? or did someone that slipped threw the cracks in the laws we already have and a failed mental health system use a tool to kill someone?

Great job on allowing whackjobs to get weapons while opposing new laws.

[PhaelixWW]

My obtuseness? Or your lack of evidence of the actual system?

So linking and quoting federal regulations and federal documents is not considered evidence of the actual system? Like I said, I've been a part of a gun trace before. I'm familiar with the way it actually works.

Then again, it sounds like the only "authority" you'll accept is your own self-delusions.

Despite my evidence, the best you can come up with is "No, you're wrong!" Which is why I asked you to prove that you're correct when you say I'm wrong. And you can't. Enter more obfuscation.

[Rukentuts]

So linking and quoting federal regulations and federal documents is not considered evidence of the actual system? Like I said, I've been a part of a gun trace before. I'm familiar with the way it actually works.

You've proven you're no authority. You've also proven you're devoid of evidence.

Then again, it sounds like the only "authority" you'll accept is your own self-delusions.

Hypocrisy overload.

[PhaelixWW]

Great job on allowing whackjobs to get weapons while opposing new laws.

The "whackjob" in question was a retired police captain. I'm pretty sure he passed his background check.

[cuafpr]

Great job on allowing whackjobs to get weapons while opposing new laws.

what good is a new law thats not enforced? Or are you assuming b.c. its new it will be, when old ones aren't?

[Rukentuts]

The "whackjob" in question was a retired police captain. I'm pretty sure he passed his background check.

Is that supposed to make me love a murderer or something? It's obvious the system doesn't work.

You're proving a point that even background checks don't work, by the way. And I love it.

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what good is a new law thats not enforced? Or are you assuming b.c. its new it will be, when old ones aren't?

Like what? Tell me exactly.

[PhaelixWW]

You've proven you're no authority. You've also proven you're devoid of evidence.

I link federal regulations that back up what I've said, and you claim that I'm devoid of evidence. Yet you can't even tell me how you think I'm supposed to be wrong.

Yeah, you've definitely lost all your credibility.

I challenge anybody reading this forum who agrees with Rukentuts on this topic to try and defend his claim.

[Rukentuts]

I link federal regulations that back up what I've said, and you claim that I'm devoid of evidence. Yet you can't even tell me how you think I'm supposed to be wrong.

Yeah, you've definitely lost all your credibility.

I challenge anybody reading this forum who agrees with Rukentuts on this topic to try and defend his claim.

Oh no, you , Mr. I-Won't-Back-Up-My-Claims claimed I have no credibility, whatever will I do?

In fact, that's why gun law websites even detail that most states have no live tracking at all. It's only traced by manufacturer, not end user.

[Mormolyce]

Despite the media-driven viewpoint of America being awash with guns... we're not. I've never seen a firearm in public that wasn't strapped to the hip of a law enforcement officer, either. Of course, I live in California with no open carry allowed.

I also haven't witnessed any shootings, despite the fact that I live in a major city in a state that claims more than 1/7 of the country's firearm homicides. Of course, that's also because California has a population greater than all but a handful of European countries, and nearly twice that of Australia.

If I'm reading this right California is open carry but only in towns with populations 200,000 or below. These laws are a real patchwork.

Looks like the homicide rate is about 6/100k in Cali, which is about 6 times what it is in Melbourne (and in most of Australia, Europe, the UK etc). I'm sure it's not like the Wild West or anything but still. I'd get a gun :P

One interesting thing I read was that 85% of murders of white people are committed by white people, and like 90% of murders of black people are committed by black people. Murder is apartheid!

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Its like if 20 people are all killed in one on location at once via an "AR" type rifle its somehow worse than 20 people killed over the course of a month with a hand gun. (numbers totally made up).

They're both problems, obviously.

The reason AR-15s and whatnot get a lot of attention is because of killing sprees, which are rare events of high intensity. The other type of murder are less rare events of relatively low intensity, normally committed with cheap readily available handguns.

Of course the other major reason semi-automatic weapons are a battleground in the US is because the Second Amendment heavily impedes any attempt at gun control for those cheap handguns (especially after the Supreme Court ruling in 2010). So, unable to do anything about the majority of murder weapons, the gun control movement turns its attention to the most egregious weapons that are used in the most shocking crimes. And find themselves roadblocked by the gun lobby even on that.

[cuafpr]

Is that supposed to make me love a murderer or something? It's obvious the system doesn't work.

You're proving a point that even background checks don't work, by the way. And I love it.

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Like what? Tell me exactly.

dont know FL laws, and CBA to become an expert on them. But if you think there isn't a mental health care issue in the US then yeah..... you're way off. There is a stigma against anyone that seeks help, and getting someone help against their will is neigh impossible. That said even then you must be careful about using it as a reason to confiscate weapons.

Though i for one (even if it was my dad or brother) would rather living a country where things like this could happen with freedom to own a gun vs one where i couldn't and things like this still happened only a gun wasn't used.

[Rukentuts]

dont know FL laws, and CBA to become an expert on them. But if you think there isn't a mental health care issue in the US then yeah..... you're way off. There is a stigma against anyone that seeks help, and getting someone help against their will is neigh impossible. That said even then you must be careful about using it as a reason to confiscate weapons.

Though i for one (even if it was my dad or brother) would rather living a country where things like this could happen with freedom to own a gun vs one where i couldn't and things like this still happened only a gun wasn't used.

You'd rather live in a country where people died than people had reasonable measures taken to prevent weapons from being allowed to psychos like this ex-cop? Wow.

And guess what, had the ex-cop used a knife the dude would have a significantly greater chance of surviving.

[PhaelixWW]

Is that supposed to make me love a murderer or something? It's obvious the system doesn't work.

You're proving a point that even background checks don't work, by the way. And I love it.

Yes, I'm proving that even expanded background checks wouldn't have covered this situation. That nobody had anyway of predicting that this event would have happened, and that pretty much no gun control action short of full, outright confiscation could have prevented this once-respected and -trusted person from doing what he did.

As full confiscation is not going to happen, then this incident illustrates that the solution to crime is not always gun control. Humans being human, crime is inevitable. Sometimes, you have to step back and admit that not every crime can be prevented.

[Rukentuts]

As full confiscation is not going to happen, then this incident illustrates that the solution to crime is not always gun control. Humans being human, crime is inevitable. Sometimes, you have to step back and admit that not every crime can be prevented.

But one can limit the damage it can cause. Fuckers like this ex-cop have no business being allowed arms.

[cuafpr]

You'd rather live in a country where people died than people had reasonable measures taken to prevent weapons from being allowed to psychos like this ex-cop? Wow.

And guess what, had the ex-cop used a knife the dude would have a significantly greater chance of surviving.

people will die regardless.... a ban wont help, more laws that are not enforced wont help. I dont consider him a psycho either, more than likely he had a mental issue (I'd wager PTSD of some sort from his time as a cop) and a combo of the movie he was about to say and the confrontation triggered something. What law would have prevented him from having a gun, that isn't an outright ban?

And a knife can kill just as well as a gun. I could also say if more people had guns then someone might have been able to draw and drop the man b4 he shot the other guy, but that is assumptions just like saying if he had a knife the guy would be alive is.

[Rukentuts]

And a knife can kill just as well as a gun.

Can't tell if serious. Because if serious it would be hilarious.

[cuafpr]

Can't tell if serious. Because if serious it would be hilarious.

are u saying a knife can't kill a person in a single stab? cause it can.... A gun is easier but both can kill just a well.

[Rukentuts]

are u saying a knife can't kill a person in a single stab? cause it can.... A gun is easier but both can kill just a well.

The bolded is why a gun is deadlier.

[PhaelixWW]

In fact, that's why gun law websites even detail that most states have no live tracking at all. It's only traced by manufacturer, not end user.

Like I said, you're in la-la land, arguing something completely different.

I never said that I was talking about live tracking. I said, time and time again, that i was talking about the current system of gun traces. But the current system of traces can and does end in the name of at least the first retail buyer. Based on current laws, that's the most you can hope for, since further transactions are not automatically required to be recorded. Nor, obviously, are illegal transactions going to be recorded.

But the traces are done nationwide. Don't believe me? Feel free to browse the ATF's trace statistics for all 50 states plus DC, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands.