Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Dethh]

Deliberate ignorance is a thing.

Yeah but so is disagreeing with something. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you ignore.

[Rukentuts]

Yeah but so is disagreeing with something.

No, we're talking such deliberate ignorance as to saying scientific sampling isn't a thing. Or such gems like "dictionaries aren't the authorities of definitions of words", or "I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that."

This is the type of deliberate ignorance I am referring to. Those that cannot recall a grade school education.

And finally, just to call it out there. Here's one of our many studies we've linked. Access to guns increases chances of being murdered or suicide.

[Dethh]

No, we're talking such deliberate ignorance as to saying scientific sampling isn't a thing. Or such gems like "dictionaries aren't the authorities of definitions of words", or "I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that."

This is the type of deliberate ignorance I am referring to. Those that cannot recall a grade school education.

And finally, just to call it out there. Here's one of our many studies we've linked. Access to guns increases chances of being murdered or suicide.

I briefly looked at the article and one thing that stuck out to me was this. From the article: "The studies were published between 1988 and 2005. All but one found people with access to firearms had heightened risks of dying from suicide and murder." Not saying I disagree but with so many guns in America wouldn't almost anyone have access to a firearm?

[THE Bigzoman]

I briefly looked at the article and one thing that stuck out to me was this. From the article: "The studies were published between 1988 and 2005. All but one found people with access to firearms had heightened risks of dying from suicide and murder." Not saying I disagree but with so many guns in America wouldn't almost anyone have access to a firearm?

That's what struck me too. Now that I got one of the infamous studies that Ruken has been bitching and moaning about, I figured the definition of "access" would be precise enough.

I guess not.

[Rukentuts]

I briefly looked at the article and one thing that stuck out to me was this. From the article: "The studies were published between 1988 and 2005. All but one found people with access to firearms had heightened risks of dying from suicide and murder." Not saying I disagree but with so many guns in America wouldn't almost anyone have access to a firearm?

It meant easy access to a gun that you already possess.

Just over 1/3 of households have a gun, and even many of those store them safely.

[Naxere]

Bill Burr on point about the "owning a gun increases the chances of you dying from one."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5lOjhD_z6E (the relevant bits start at around 4:50).

[Dethh]

It meant easy access to a gun that you already possess.

Just over 1/3 of households have a gun, and even many of those store them safely.

I couldn't find anywhere it specifically says a gun you already posses just access to one. Maybe I missed it, like I said I read it briefly. Could you point me in the right direction?

[Rukentuts]

I couldn't find anywhere it specifically says a gun you already posses just access to one. Maybe I missed it, like I said I read it briefly. Could you point me in the right direction?

It can be easily inferred from this statement.

Researchers found people who lived in homes with firearms were between two and three times more likely to die from either cause, compared to those who lived in homes without guns

Thus "access".

[Dethh]

It can be easily inferred from this statement.

Thus "access".

I see. One other thing that came to mind was are the firearms in these homes owned legally or illegally? Or does it not specify?

[Rukentuts]

One other thing that came to mind was are the firearms in these homes owned legally or illegally? Or does it not specify?

Survey data, so not specified explicitly. Link to the journal.

[TZucchini]

One of those rights, the right to bear arms, is the tool by which we guarantee all other rights. If that right can be taken away, so can all other rights.

How, specifically, does the right to own firearms guarantee all other rights?

[Dethh]

Survey data, so not specified explicitly. Link to the journal.

So it's possible that 80% (random number) of the firearms used in the cases sampled were illegally owned? They should have used cases that involved legally owned firearms.

[Svifnymr]

I briefly looked at the article and one thing that stuck out to me was this. From the article: "The studies were published between 1988 and 2005. All but one found people with access to firearms had heightened risks of dying from suicide and murder." Not saying I disagree but with so many guns in America wouldn't almost anyone have access to a firearm?

If you read through the actual report, they reviewed a bunch of studies and they admit to most of the faults of the studies and the problems with the information they collected. Their conclusions are vague because of that. For example, there is a "moderately" higher chance of being involved in a firearm related homicide if you have access to a gun than if not, but the phrasing is vague intentionally because the specific studies are widely divergent in numbers.

As another example, it specifically mentions the vagueness of "access to firearm" and misreporting by respondents as to who had actual access or ownership.

[Mayhem]

'I don't like logic or dealing with real problems, so I'll just stop responding to the one guy who is actually talking about what's important.'

Yes, I know it's difficult to apply logic when there's a giant black hole of anti gun rhetoric sucking it all up, but you should really try harder to have a meaningful conversation.

you mean, like quoting only half of a sentence?

[Eroginous]

you mean, like quoting only half of a sentence?

Only half your sentence was worth quoting, sorry.

How, specifically, does the right to own firearms guarantee all other rights?

It's been explained to you numerous times already. If we didn't have the right to bear arms, we wouldn't even be called America. We'd be North Mexico or New France. Or even Spainland.

Specifically, the right to bear arms guarantees that you have other rights because no one can take them from you except by force. Without the right to bear arms, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can revoke whatever rights they want and you're stuck with it. Just look at all these middle eastern countries where the citizens don't have free speech, freedom of assembly, or the right to bear arms. Do they have democracy? How do you suppose they obtain their rights if not by utilizing firearms to establish said democracy?

[TZucchini]

It's been explained to you numerous times already. If we didn't have the right to bear arms, we wouldn't even be called America. We'd be North Mexico or New France. Or even Spainland.

Rather than indulging this tin foil hattery too deeply, I'll simply ask: How have all these other countries, who do not have a specific right to own firearms, continue to not only exist, but exceed The United States in several important metrics, like crime rates, health care, education, etc.?

[Tinykong]

Hey, we're back to that point in the thread again where we argue about how firearms don't cause suicide but rather just facilitate it and how that somehow makes anyone who owns a firearm "less safe" because suicide totally affects everyone.

[Eroginous]

Rather than indulging this tin foil hattery too deeply, I'll simply ask: How have all these other countries, who do not have a specific right to own firearms, continue to not only exist, but exceed The United States in several important metrics, like crime rates, health care, education, etc.?

Tin foil hattery? Really? Do you know anything about the history of the world you live in? Do you not understand how close we came to losing America to other countries? Also, many of other countries you're talking about have been around for much longer than the US. They established themselves through war long before firearms were invented, but it was the same principle. They had the right to bear arms and used those arms to establish countries and governments. America is a very young country and is still experiencing growing pains.

I feel sorry for the citizens of countries that don't have the rights to bear arms.

[Mayhem]

sorry

i accept your apology

[Rukentuts]

I feel sorry for the citizens of countries that don't have the rights to bear arms.

They feel sorry for us, and the fact we're behind on pretty much every other First World metric, demonstrated with the ignorance we've seen in this thread.