Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[obdigore]

I love how when I say a guy should cite his claims everyone starts bitching about me. Bravo guys, well done.

@obdigore, yeah JustFacts annoys me because it takes some actual digging before you find out the guys who run it are largely right wing "free market" guys;

Meh. They did a bunch of correlations, ignoring any reason for violence, ignored the entire handgun ban is only in effect in a city (like Chicago, where you can literally drive half an hour to WI, buy whatever the hell you want, and drive back to the city) and then act like bans don't work. Delusional but a common tactic.

What I hate is the NRA doing everything in their power to block any kind of studies of gun violence, and the motivations or causes of it. We need that data to move towards a less violent society, but it is blocked because the NRA fears it might hurt them.

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 03:15 AM ----------

DailyKos is an aggregator. You cant compare a random blog post to a CDC study.

Sure I can. It is just proof that the poster ignores anything that might support the person he disagrees with, even to the point of not looking at the links when he posts the ones that support his 'side', and claims that everything anyone else posts is partisan.

[Wells]

Wasn't talking to you on that last bit there Obs.

[obdigore]

Wasn't talking to you on that last bit there Obs.

I stand by my comments.

[Kasierith]

What I hate is the NRA doing everything in their power to block any kind of studies of gun violence, and the motivations or causes of it. We need that data to move towards a less violent society, but it is blocked because the NRA fears it might hurt them.

The NRA has shown in the past that, like the ProLife groups, it has next to little concern about the topics it advocates and the most concern about lining its pockets. If the main focus of guns in the household is safety like it says, than it would be more interested in being open about studies and such; but ultimately, they are concerned less about its members and more about congregating wealth among a few elite among its ranks. Its a clear example of where a special interest group has drifted away from its supporters.

[Judson]

Lol, an infraction for saying who I think Wells is and why it's pointless to debate him.. I must have hit a nerve. I didn't realize that calling someone ******* was "naming and shaming" but I guess if a moderator wants to say that being labeled as ******* is naming and shaming he must have a pretty poor opinion of *******.

My post wasn't to insult him. It was to support the other poster and let him know how pointless his efforts were going to be, though he likely already knew. The tactics Wells uses should be your issue, not my post shedding light on it.

Edit, just realized the mod sniped the name from my previous post so I removed it from here as well. Not that I thought naming who I thought he was put him in a bad light.

[Todgruppe]

That's correlation, hardly a meaningful statistic.

But if we're going to go with correlation we could point out how we have a huge number of guns compared to other first world nations and are a lot less safe.

Says? Research shows.....



You are more likely to be a victim of crime in; Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, France.

[obdigore]

Says? Research shows.....



You are more likely to be a victim of crime in; Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, France.

Crimes reported to the police, and not gun crimes. I believe wells has said, and I know I have said, that guns aren't the cause of crime but rather allow criminals to do more damage, faster.

Why is the NRA doing everything in their power to stop anyone from studying why crimes with firearms happen?

[Kasierith]

Says? Research shows.....



You are more likely to be a victim of crime in; Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, France.

Well without anything like the variables or methodology its hard to verity the information on your chart, but... unless I am very tired and my eyesight is failing me, the US is the highest at 10,639, with Italy at 2630, Germany at 6,054, the UK at 4790~, Spain at 2,335, and France at 3,521.

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 09:37 AM ----------

Crimes reported to the police, and not gun crimes. I believe wells has said, and I know I have said, that guns aren't the cause of crime but rather allow criminals to do more damage, faster.

Why is the NRA doing everything in their power to stop anyone from studying why crimes with firearms happen?

http://www.sodahead.com/united-state...stion-3396749/

[obdigore]

Well without anything like the variables or methodology its hard to verity the information on your chart, but... unless I am very tired and my eyesight is failing me, the US is the highest at 10,639, with Italy at 2630, Germany at 6,054, the UK at 4790~, Spain at 2,335, and France at 3,521.

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 09:37 AM ----------



http://www.sodahead.com/united-state...stion-3396749/

I'm assuming those numbers aren't modified for population. France has about 21% (at 65million) the population, but about 33% total crime rates of the US.

[Todgruppe]

Crimes reported to the police, and not gun crimes. I believe wells has said, and I know I have said, that guns aren't the cause of crime but rather allow criminals to do more damage, faster.

Why is the NRA doing everything in their power to stop anyone from studying why crimes with firearms happen?

Was more in reference to being "less safe" as that is a broad sweeping statement. Less safe in terms of firearm crime? Yeah, barely. But overall? Some countries win by miles.

Well without anything like the variables or methodology its hard to verity the information on your chart, but... unless I am very tired and my eyesight is failing me, the US is the highest at 10,639, with Italy at 2630, Germany at 6,054, the UK at 4790~, Spain at 2,335, and France at 3,521.

The EU commission put that list together, and numbers =/= %. While raw numbers say they are lower, crime per 100,000 is higher.. much in some cases.

[PizzaSHARK]

I stand by my comments.

Obdigore, using a site like the DailyKos to support an argument would be like citing Fox News or Huffington Post. They have a clear agenda, so you can't really assume the information they're presenting hasn't been spin doctored to ensure it furthers their agenda.

At best, you just use the site to find links to their sources, which will hopefully be more legitimate.

[Kasierith]

The EU commission put that list together, and numbers =/= %. While raw numbers say they are lower, crime per 100,000 is higher.. much in some cases.

Ah, normally these are listed according to Nth number of people, so I was lost there. That said, though, "crimes reported" isn't exactly the best way to examine the effects of guns on overall crime.

[obdigore]

Was more in reference to being "less safe" as that is a broad sweeping statement. Less safe in terms of firearm crime? Yeah, barely. But overall? Some countries win by miles.

Your list also seems weird that there is only 10k Crimes in the US, yet the CDC claims there was 11,493 homicides with firearms in the US last year.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

I wonder if that list is already controlled for population?

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 03:45 AM ----------

Obdigore, using a site like the DailyKos to support an argument would be like citing Fox News or Huffington Post. They have a clear agenda, so you can't really assume the information they're presenting hasn't been spin doctored to ensure it furthers their agenda.

At best, you just use the site to find links to their sources, which will hopefully be more legitimate.

I know. I still find it hilarious that I linked DailyKos, then he claimed my DailyKos link was partisan and linked DailyKos to support his point.

[Todgruppe]

Ah, normally these are listed according to Nth number of people, so I was lost there. That said, though, "crimes reported" isn't exactly the best way to examine the effects of guns on overall crime.

No, but as I said before his comment on being less safe, was broad and ambiguous.

[Deleted]

I'm not an American but i support it. I don't see any need for Assault weapons either.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm not an American but i support it. I don't see any need for Assault weapons either.

There's no such thing as an "assault weapon."

[obdigore]

There's no such thing as an "assault weapon."

Yes there is! That is what the ladies call my ... face?

[Todgruppe]

Your list also seems weird that there is only 10k Crimes in the US, yet the CDC claims there was 11,493 homicides with firearms in the US last year.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

I wonder if that list is already controlled for population?

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 03:45 AM ----------



I know. I still find it hilarious that I linked DailyKos, then he claimed my DailyKos link was partisan and linked DailyKos to support his point.

Hell if I know? Maybe they count multiple offenses as one report? Stab 4 people, get arrested and noted as one crime? Maybe they eliminate gang related deaths as a crime? I know the FBI had a report awhile about 11k fatalities from shootings, 6k where gang related? Gangs at war maybe not counting? I didn't do the methodology, EU commission did on that one.

[Deleted]

But he didn't use a fully automatic weapon.

Better regulation for me.

We banned hand guns in the UK, not really stopped the shootings.

Edit: Just seen on the bbc.co.uk he used an AR15.

[Deleted]

There's no such thing as an "assault weapon."

Ofcourse there isn't