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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Ret's been an entertaining montage in failure since the Holy Power implementation.
    anyone who thinks the holy power implementation was bad doesn't remember ret in vanilla or bc. it was shoddy and lazy, but it was functional, unlike ret has been in the past. i'll take S9 ret over S1 ret any day.

    holy power implementation gave us two of our best pvp seasons ever where we had one of the few comps that could go toe to toe with some of the most unbalanced wizard crap in the game.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Ret's been an entertaining montage in failure since the Holy Power implementation.

    Step One: "Hey guys, this class is too proc dependent; why don't we implement a resource whereby Ret paladins don't have to depend solely on the stars aligning with Divine Purpose procs to do good in PvP? All agreed? Good idea? Fantastic"

    Step Two: "Hey guys, this class feels too strong most of the time; why don't we implement a Slice and Dice mechanic wherein they have to waste some of their resources every 36 seconds to be at 100% potency, prior to this 30% damage buff being at only 70% potency. As well as that, why don't we pretty much make all their attacks do exactly the same amount of Damage so they can't be accused of being reliant on burst damage...but make it so that to be at their absolute best they have to use 2/3 DPS cooldowns and unleash a huge amount of burst damage? All settled? This sound good? Marvellous"

    The entire progression can be summed up as trading off Proc-dependency for Burst-dependency; not a good trade-off, and thus not impossible to understand those Ret PvPers in the higher echelons of the rankings who rerolled to a different spec/class.
    Holy Power was a really good idea, but implemented really poorly during Cata, where Crusader Strike was the only way to generate HP. Now in MOP it's not clunky at all, and seems to be well designed. The only real problem is that other classes have a lot of abilities that are thoughtlessly designed. Even Paladin talents have majority of concern given towards Holy, and Ret was an after thought.

    If you look at the Paladin talent tree you'll see stuff that works best for Holy. Even Protection has a hard time justifying every talent, because it was built for Holy in mind. Like for example Unbreakable Spirit.

    Holy --> Being able to Bubble has 0 downsides for Holy. Cast heals all day long in a bubble. Especially Lay On Hands which just adds to their healing.

    Protection --> Bubble drops threat for Prot so this does jack. Lay on Hands is probably the only benefit Protection gets.

    Retribution --> Bubbling nerfs damage by 50%, so you won't want to do this too often in Raids. In Arena you won't live past the first train to generate enough HP to get the cool down quick enough to use it again. Lay On Hands in nice in PvE but when they make LoH immune to Tsulong it really limits its uses for Rets.

    Overall this talent is made specifically for Holy cause using bubble has 0 downsides for them. Where as Prot and Ret have bubble work against them. It's a poorly thought out talent.

  3. #43
    Ret is really really bad at the moment, but after last seasons triple DPS I'm okay with this.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    So apparently Gc said this on his Twitter.






    Now while I'm kind of happy with Ret I have to wonder, Where does Blizzard think Ret should be in Pvp? I mean Ret is not an amazing spec for PvP. The biggest thing Ret brings to the table is being able to off heal. Our damage is good while using Cd's and then pretty bad when they are down. With the nerfs to hybrid healing and the over all nerf to healing in Pvp Ret's self healing is horrible. WoG is healing for around 30k with 3 holy power. Current health pools are over 360k meaning it would take over 10 casts of WoG with 3 holy power to get full health.

    I think if Blizzard can buff ret's survivability through either healing or a new defensive cd the spec will be where it should be. However by the sound of Ghost Crawler they are happy to leave Ret where it is (not very good in arena or rated bg's).
    no, it isnt exactly where it should be

    we got a DOUBLE blanket healing nerf, cause of shadow priests being OP

    and our heals are still affected, while % heals like second wind arent affected.

    no GC, as usual, you are saying shit without a clue as to how things really are in the arena or bgs.

  5. #45
    I was thinking today, I can't think of another class or spec that has worse self healing than ret right now, our only defense is essentially gone now.

  6. #46
    Brewmaster Xothic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Holy Power was a really good idea, but implemented really poorly during Cata, where Crusader Strike was the only way to generate HP. Now in MOP it's not clunky at all, and seems to be well designed. The only real problem is that other classes have a lot of abilities that are thoughtlessly designed. Even Paladin talents have majority of concern given towards Holy, and Ret was an after thought.

    If you look at the Paladin talent tree you'll see stuff that works best for Holy. Even Protection has a hard time justifying every talent, because it was built for Holy in mind. Like for example Unbreakable Spirit.

    Holy --> Being able to Bubble has 0 downsides for Holy. Cast heals all day long in a bubble. Especially Lay On Hands which just adds to their healing.

    Protection --> Bubble drops threat for Prot so this does jack. Lay on Hands is probably the only benefit Protection gets.

    Retribution --> Bubbling nerfs damage by 50%, so you won't want to do this too often in Raids. In Arena you won't live past the first train to generate enough HP to get the cool down quick enough to use it again. Lay On Hands in nice in PvE but when they make LoH immune to Tsulong it really limits its uses for Rets.

    Overall this talent is made specifically for Holy cause using bubble has 0 downsides for them. Where as Prot and Ret have bubble work against them. It's a poorly thought out talent.
    Completely wrong. In fights where I don't need to spam HoP, don't have insane dot damage being put against me (H SG and H Feng are the only ones that come to mind) I ALWAYS run with Unbreakable spirit. It can knock the cooldown off of Divine protection by an extremely significant net amount over a fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asphyxes View Post
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    Xothic - Prot Paladin - Expired at the end of 5.1, returned start of 5.4, left again. Returned again, left again, returned again. You know how it is.

  7. #47
    the funny thing is, the mechanics for the spec are in a really good place (generating holy power is FAR better than it used to be), but the battle fatigue buffs and the removal of pvp power for healing for rets, has made healing pretty weak.

    meanwhile, an arms warrior can outheal a dedicated healer once they hit 35%.

    balance.

  8. #48
    Why anyone still expects PvP balance across the board in a game that has never achieved it is beyond me.

    Peaks and valleys. That's the summation of WoW PvP.

  9. #49
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Why anyone still expects PvP balance across the board in a game that has never achieved it is beyond me.

    Peaks and valleys. That's the summation of WoW PvP.
    We dont ask for perfect balance (probably not achievable with this many specs) we just want better PvP balance with ret as a viable spec.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Wait so Ghostcrawler's parents were undead?... Things are actually starting to make sense now...
    well, he is the ghostcrawler, after all.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Holy Power was a really good idea, but implemented really poorly during Cata, where Crusader Strike was the only way to generate HP. Now in MOP it's not clunky at all, and seems to be well designed. The only real problem is that other classes have a lot of abilities that are thoughtlessly designed. Even Paladin talents have majority of concern given towards Holy, and Ret was an after thought.

    If you look at the Paladin talent tree you'll see stuff that works best for Holy. Even Protection has a hard time justifying every talent, because it was built for Holy in mind. Like for example Unbreakable Spirit.

    Holy --> Being able to Bubble has 0 downsides for Holy. Cast heals all day long in a bubble. Especially Lay On Hands which just adds to their healing.

    Protection --> Bubble drops threat for Prot so this does jack. Lay on Hands is probably the only benefit Protection gets.

    Retribution --> Bubbling nerfs damage by 50%, so you won't want to do this too often in Raids. In Arena you won't live past the first train to generate enough HP to get the cool down quick enough to use it again. Lay On Hands in nice in PvE but when they make LoH immune to Tsulong it really limits its uses for Rets.

    Overall this talent is made specifically for Holy cause using bubble has 0 downsides for them. Where as Prot and Ret have bubble work against them. It's a poorly thought out talent.
    Are you talking about sacred shield, or are you saying holy can cast lay on hands on themselves while in divine shield? Because they can't. No spec can, due to Forbearance.

    Same goes for the use of hand if protection on yourself or others. It's either use lay on hands and not be able to use bubble or bop for 1min or vice versa and not use LoH for 1min.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
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  12. #52
    Holy Power works fine now, the issue is that they took so long to perfect a pretty simply mechanic. They spent so much time revamping us that they forgot to actually move the spec forward in relation to other specs. Our big new buff for the expansion is the ability to finally snare, in the previous expansion we got an interrupt... we basically get tossed some scrap that every other melee spec has had since vanilla every xpack, some shiny new animations, and they call it an expansion. Ret is a painfully bare-bones spec with some functionality (such as being hard to kite), but also with some serious flaws such as very lousy survivability, and absolutely nothing outstanding or strategically potent. We're pretty well rounded, but consistently under-tuned, if we could have instant Repent we could at least have cut out a niche as a CC heavy spec.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Holy Power works fine now, the issue is that they took so long to perfect a pretty simply mechanic. They spent so much time revamping us that they forgot to actually move the spec forward in relation to other specs. Our big new buff for the expansion is the ability to finally snare, in the previous expansion we got an interrupt... we basically get tossed some scrap that every other melee spec has had since vanilla every xpack, some shiny new animations, and they call it an expansion. Ret is a painfully bare-bones spec with some functionality (such as being hard to kite), but also with some serious flaws such as very lousy survivability, and absolutely nothing outstanding or strategically potent. We're pretty well rounded, but consistently under-tuned, if we could have instant Repent we could at least have cut out a niche as a CC heavy spec.
    You mean, if they DIDN'T rob us of what WAS the quintessential ret ability since Vanilla, only to give it BACK to ALL specs as part of our underwhelming CC Talent Tier? Oh, but then they made sure to water it down with a cast time (though, to be fair, they dropped the CD on it as well). But that wasn't enough...oh, no...they had to then make us choose whether we can actually get that snare we've needed for 8 years at the cost of repent AND short CD hammer. Both of which were previously baseline and/or cookie cutter ret abilities.

    While DukeNukem had some flaws in his assessment of the talents, he is spot on with how the talent tiers were designed with respect to the class. By and large, they GREATLY favor holy by way of providing a healing class with the cc and survival tools previously only afforded to the dps/tank specs. Those dps/tank specs were not rewarded commensurately with better healing. In fact, they were actually gutted in most cases, with the loss of iconic and central abilities, then forced to CHOOSE one to take back.

    It's really a poorly thought out system, and insulting to say the least. Not only that, but it further penalizes the wrong specs, and empowers the ones that did not need it.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    We dont ask for perfect balance (probably not achievable with this many specs) we just want better PvP balance with ret as a viable spec.
    See, this is where things get lost in translation. I can pull up Twitch and watch half a dozen 2200+ Rets play throughout most any day. I can pull up AJ and see that, even with all the win-traded teams and Ret teams that haven't played since the nerf that there are still Ret Paladins doing well....

    Then I come here and see people claiming it's not viable.

    I think we have different opinions on viable. Maybe the word you're looking for is "faceroll".

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    See, this is where things get lost in translation. I can pull up Twitch and watch half a dozen 2200+ Rets play throughout most any day. I can pull up AJ and see that, even with all the win-traded teams and Ret teams that haven't played since the nerf that there are still Ret Paladins doing well....

    Then I come here and see people claiming it's not viable.

    I think we have different opinions on viable. Maybe the word you're looking for is "faceroll".
    Because everyone knows if you can get 2200, it's viable... lolno.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Because everyone knows if you can get 2200, it's viable... lolno.
    You take that one segment literally and you look stupid doing it. Try again.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Are you talking about sacred shield, or are you saying holy can cast lay on hands on themselves while in divine shield? Because they can't. No spec can, due to Forbearance.

    Same goes for the use of hand if protection on yourself or others. It's either use lay on hands and not be able to use bubble or bop for 1min or vice versa and not use LoH for 1min.
    I think I wasn't clear of what I said. That particular talent decreases the cool downs of 3 Paladin abilities, but some of those Paladin abilities aren't useful unless your Holy. Divine Shield is something that doesn't nerf their healing, but does nerf Rets damage. Plus a Ret can't heal to full during Divine Shield. Protection loses threat in PvE with Divine Shield. So essentially Prot and Ret can only make good use of Divine Protection and Lay on Hands portion of that talent.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You take that one segment literally and you look stupid doing it. Try again.
    You look stupid trying to say I look stupid.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    See, this is where things get lost in translation. I can pull up Twitch and watch half a dozen 2200+ Rets play throughout most any day. I can pull up AJ and see that, even with all the win-traded teams and Ret teams that haven't played since the nerf that there are still Ret Paladins doing well....
    by half a dozen you mean 2.

    one of whom is one of the most singularly talented players currently playing, a multiclasser, and who has stated live that his enhance is stronger then his ret the other plays on an absolutely terrible battlegroup where 2.2k is almost glad range.

    there are nearly 10x as many warriors/mages/shamans/priests/warlocks playing in that range.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    by half a dozen you mean 2.

    one of whom is one of the most singularly talented players currently playing, a multiclasser, and who has stated live that his enhance is stronger then his ret the other plays on an absolutely terrible battlegroup where 2.2k is almost glad range.

    there are nearly 10x as many warriors/mages/shamans/priests/warlocks playing in that range.
    Warriors, Mages, Shamans, Priests and Warlocks being (as usual) ridiculously strong in Arena does not dictate Ret viability.

    By half a dozen I mean 6. Guess we watch at different times or look for different things. Life sucks when you don't know it all, doesn't it?

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