Rise of The Hutt Cartel: First Digital Expansion

[RoninaThorstone]

I admit they're system is flawed. They hold bags at five dollars each promising two rare items and a chance of a super rare (You might not even be able to use) most people do it just to see inside their mystery bags. I think it's obvious also they meant it to be traded with each other thus kicking up the value if it was just bound.

Sadly when I thought of Free to Play I didn't imagine they would try to sell almost everything. I thought being without a sub would sorta be like how GW2 is. Once you buy it once you're done. Now I understand it means you can play without a sub or play with out and if you don't they are going take all the little luxury's we took for granted. For example Warzones etc

And an EXP Nerf, till we do pay. It's sad this game has focused more on greed and getting most money in smallest amount of time then actual content that everyone can enjoy. I'm sure we didn't imagine years ago we'd be bickering over little details almost glad to get anything. Strange they did a ton of new content for Cartel Market. Even though I'm a sub. Some of the thing's I can't enjoy because I didn't pay directly for that item.

Eh. That wasn't a luxury.
That was them shooting their queue times in the face.

[jvbastel]

I know that rift for example offer x10 more with that price than swtor but for some reason I don't enjoy Rift. Should I support Rift because their developers offer more to the customers or should I pay to play what I enjoy more at the current time?

I myself have the same feeling about rift. I have a lot of respect for Trion, but I didn't like the game enough to pay a monthly fee for it. If they went B2P/F2P with a decent model I would play it again.

If you like SWTOR, and have the urge to play it every once in a while, that's perfectly fine. it's your time and your money, and you feel the product is worth your investment. If I enjoyed SWTOR as much as you, maybe I would as well, despite my opinion of their business model.

Some years ago I had the exact same thoughts and in that time I have stopped paying wow to send them that message. when we had 1+ year ICC I said it doesn't worth it to pay and stopped while I still had some fun in game but obviously the money I did pay with the content I did get wasn't worth it.

...

I also made posts in official forums to tell people to unsubscribe to send a message and get flamed by fanboys. So I ended up to no care to change things and just play what I have fun with and personaly value my money/hours of fun. So basicaly what you ask is very right but is utopia and you will end up very disappointed

I don't really want to convince people to unsubscribe, frankly, I don't care about what other people do for their entertainment, and it's none of my business either. I just want to point out the fact that EA/BW are pushing the boundaries with SWTOR. As a long-time MMO player, I'm interested to see how the market evolves, but I also care about the games I play. Not enough to lie awake at night about it - it's just a game - but I still want to see developers create honest, fair products and business models. I think it's better for them in the long run, and for the customers as well.

I admit they're system is flawed. They hold bags at five dollars each promising two rare items and a chance of a super rare (You might not even be able to use) most people do it just to see inside their mystery bags. I think it's obvious also they meant it to be traded with each other thus kicking up the value if it was just bound.

Sadly when I thought of Free to Play I didn't imagine they would try to sell almost everything. I thought being without a sub would sorta be like how GW2 is. Once you buy it once you're done. Now I understand it means you can play without a sub or play with out and if you don't they are going take all the little luxury's we took for granted. For example Warzones etc

And an EXP Nerf, till we do pay. It's sad this game has focused more on greed and getting most money in smallest amount of time then actual content that everyone can enjoy. I'm sure we didn't imagine years ago we'd be bickering over little details almost glad to get anything. Strange they did a ton of new content for Cartel Market. Even though I'm a sub. Some of the thing's I can't enjoy because I didn't pay directly for that item.

When they announced the switch to F2P, I was a big supporter of it. After playing a lot of F2P games, I knew the model could work, and be great for the player. Now I know why so many people hate F2P.

F2P shouldn't be about restricting F2P players, it should be about rewarding subscribers.

[Cakka]

Given the fact that other companies can survive and push updates as fast (and faster) than SWTOR, I really doubt that they have no other choice than to ask money from the subscribers.

GW2, for example, has added a new zone, a new dungeon (which is a combination of 8 smaller mini-dungeons and a boss encounter, which scale in difficulty), 2 major events (halloween and Wintersday, both including a jumping puzzle, lots of goodies, halloween had a dungeon, not sure if wintersday will but I assume it will), a new warzone, and lots of jumping puzzles/mini dungeons.

TSW just released patch 1.5, including the 3rd auxiliary weapon, an end of the world event, new storylines, etc.

Both of these games only ask the cost of the box to play 100% of the content. TSW has a subscription, which includes convenience, cash shop currency (enough to buy the DLC's and still have some left).

This really makes it hard for me to believe that SWTOR has to charge subscribers 10$ for the DLC. It's greed, plain and simple. Sure, it costs but a few bucks. 10$ is nothing for me either. I'm a MTG player, I just bought 4 pieces of cardboard for a total of 400 euros, I think I can manage 10$ for a video game.

That's doesn't mean they are correct in asking for this payment, or that players who can easily afford it should just shut up and pay BW. Instead, players should be vocal about this. Players should show Bioware and EA that they do not want this shady form of business. The market has been changing these last couple of years towards fair F2P/B2P models, with games like DCUO,GW2 and TSW being excellent examples of how the player can get great value. GW2 has been a massive succes, TSW was sold out on steam earlier, and has been getting a lot of good responses for its model, which will surely make it more popular.

For the player,SWTOR has an awful business model in comparison to the other games on the market and I'm sure this will hurt the game, the developer, and the publisher in the long term, but it will hurt the players above all.

TL;DR: Compare SWTOR's business model to that of other games in the market, and you'll see why there is such an outcry.

It's not even greed is just pure stupidty. The reasons thing like LoL, LotRO(they tripled their revenue after going F2P and have hired lot's new people), GW2, etc. are doing so well with different kinda non-subscription models is because they have made it extremely easy and cheap to get started. I mean properly started, not having huge penalties on pretty much everything you do because you ain't a paying them a monthly fee. This generates a massive playerbase which will then generate higher overall revenue EVEN if individual spending might be lower than 15 dollars a month. Trying to milk people dry the moment they start playing just makes them go "fuck this" which is obviously a surefire way to never get anything.

[FusedMass]

I myself have the same feeling about rift. I have a lot of respect for Trion, but I didn't like the game enough to pay a monthly fee for it. If they went B2P/F2P with a decent model I would play it again.

If you like SWTOR, and have the urge to play it every once in a while, that's perfectly fine. it's your time and your money, and you feel the product is worth your investment. If I enjoyed SWTOR as much as you, maybe I would as well, despite my opinion of their business model.



I don't really want to convince people to unsubscribe, frankly, I don't care about what other people do for their entertainment, and it's none of my business either. I just want to point out the fact that EA/BW are pushing the boundaries with SWTOR. As a long-time MMO player, I'm interested to see how the market evolves, but I also care about the games I play. Not enough to lie awake at night about it - it's just a game - but I still want to see developers create honest, fair products and business models. I think it's better for them in the long run, and for the customers as well.



When they announced the switch to F2P, I was a big supporter of it. After playing a lot of F2P games, I knew the model could work, and be great for the player. Now I know why so many people hate F2P.

F2P shouldn't be about restricting F2P players, it should be about rewarding subscribers.

Exactly my thoughts. They have this whole thing twisted backwards. First we shouldn't be able to get really strong items of armor at a low level. In pvp it doesn't make it very fair to be all decked out in purple epic items while the guy in front of me just get his first set of greens. It seems they are limiting everything..and I mean everything.

Once they're was a ton of people trying to get through. Non Subs have to wait longer then sub's even to get in. Then they are removed on action bars. Experience is even nerfed. No more rested experience. The number of Warzone's they can do weekly is limited. So is their method of transportation. You can no longer drive a hover bike unless you are a sub.

I played this game for almost a year. Now they're saying "Well those were luxury Now if you continue to enjoy them and new content you'll have pay for new and don't worry..it's a discount"

I really think GW2 did it best. Purely Cosmic items with no changes in stats at all. Now with Free to Play I feel they are bent on punishing those who aren't subs. (You can almost feel the number of limits. There's almost no point to logging in.) and instead rewarding the subs. They are chopping off half a steak and saying "Be thanks we didn't charge you full price"

Every other week. I see new consumes and content. It would taken months to get in a patch.. But if people are paying for it they seem work very quickly and this content only one (PVP MAP, HK Companion) has been open for everyone to use. More likely if you want use the items from Cartel Market like armor ..weapons..etc you have to pay even as a sub.

[WarpedAcorn]

Other companies can get content out faster, but I just can't seem to stick with any of those other games. SWTOR's the one I keep wanting to play. It's a shame EA's running it like this. Not even my rabid fanboyism can justify paying for Makeb if it doesn't have enough content.

They'd better get their shit together before ESO comes out...

This is the most clear and concise statement that sums up my feelings on SWTOR and the Makeb "expansion".

[Azuri]

I myself have the same feeling about rift. I have a lot of respect for Trion, but I didn't like the game enough to pay a monthly fee for it. If they went B2P/F2P with a decent model I would play it again.

I don't think payment models affect everyone the same. I purchased GW2 and played for three weeks I just feel it lacks something. Even though I never have to pay another dime to play it I'm done with the game. TSW didn't grab me in beta and now it's b2p I still have no desire to play the combat is just not my thing.

Rift now I still continue to play and support. They also sell a service more so then any other p2p MMO with a very passionate devs and community team. How many devolpers key community mangers actually post and interact with the playerbase on this site none the less?

Anyways blah blah blah on topic I see BW asking for this $10 as another way to keep subs on the fence from bailing due to a lack of anything other then cartel market items between now and then. A sort of artificial annual pass with the only reward a 5 day head start.

[jvbastel]

I don't think payment models affect everyone the same. I purchased GW2 and played for three weeks I just feel it lacks something. Even though I never have to pay another dime to play it I'm done with the game. TSW didn't grab me in beta and now it's b2p I still have no desire to play the combat is just not my thing.

Rift now I still continue to play and support. They also sell a service more so then any other p2p MMO with a very passionate devs and community team. How many devolpers key community mangers actually post and interact with the playerbase on this site none the less?

Anyways blah blah blah on topic I see BW asking for this $10 as another way to keep subs on the fence from bailing due to a lack of anything other then cartel market items between now and then. A sort of artificial annual pass with the only reward a 5 day head start.

Well the thing is, I'm pretty caught up in between work and non-gaming hobbies (MTG,going out, trying to work off my beer belly )
I play about 6-10 hours per week MAX. In those few hours I play TSW, GW2, D3 and a few single player games. I just can't justify playing every month for a game I play 2-3 hours a week.

...

That said, I usually try every expansion/new MMO, and I'll probably buy Storm legion soon just to see the changes, I've got a lvl 50 Bahmi mage dying to get his dreadlocks combed again

[papajohn4]

I don't think payment models affect everyone the same. I purchased GW2 and played for three weeks I just feel it lacks something. Even though I never have to pay another dime to play it I'm done with the game. TSW didn't grab me in beta and now it's b2p I still have no desire to play the combat is just not my thing.

Rift now I still continue to play and support. They also sell a service more so then any other p2p MMO with a very passionate devs and community team. How many devolpers key community mangers actually post and interact with the playerbase on this site none the less?

On gw2 and TSW I am in the exact same situation...I played gw2 1 month..for Rift I tried many many times to play it and force myself to like it just because I want to support Trion and the work/passion they put into their game but this combat really couldn't used it . I think Trion is by far the best company on the MMO market and I hope they will succeed more...

[Kelimbror]

That said, I usually try every expansion/new MMO, and I'll probably buy Storm legion soon just to see the changes, I've got a lvl 50 Bahmi mage dying to get his dreadlocks combed again

Psst: 25% off today only


So back to SWTOR... I still stand by the fact that allowing a system to earn coins in game and then putting all content on the cartel market so that you can pay how you want would save a large portion of this game.

[jvbastel]

Psst: 25% off today only


So back to SWTOR... I still stand by the fact that allowing a system to earn coins in game and then putting all content on the cartel market so that you can pay how you want would save a large portion of this game.

DAMN YOU!!!

My wallet is going to hate me this month, I hate December. ><

I agree, I posted earlier what I'ld like, and it basically boils down to what TSW is doing.

1.Remove those godawful restrictions for F2P players. Award bonus cartel points for people who paid money to lift them. This will attract old and new players to the game, and create a better environment, where sub players are not punished for playing with F2P-players.

2.make the store Cosmetic/Convenience only. It's OK to ask money for costumes, titles, pets, XP potions, etc. Don't put in things like extra character slots, gold cap increase, operation vouchers or whatever they call them. this stuff should be free.

3.don't ask subscribers to pay for content updates. Not for expansions, not for DLC. Subscribers pay monthly to have all this stuff for free.
Put those updates in the Cartel market so the subscribers can use their monthly cartel points for it.

[moff]

as I thought, there wont be new gear, the old endgame gear will still be endgame gear. announcing that the old endgame this means the old flashpoints/ops/dailies will still be relevant and not obsolete.
my best guess now is, that they will either increase all the mob levels in these zones or they will change the mechanics so that player level 55 equals 50 when it comes to hit chances and similiar mechanics. both solutions are stupid though, and as i predicted, a mess.

and I really dont know if I care about makeb at all. sure, if I get new kickass abilities and skills, thats cool, but all in all I think its disrespectful to ask money from subscribers for that, and it sends the wrong message, why whould f2p players bother with subbing if they dont get updates anyway? its just disrespectful, its not about the 10$, thats a small fee. but for 15$ every month I think I should get that small update. or dies anyone think this will be the biggest content patch yet?

but even if it was free for subbers, it would still be a mess

[RoninaThorstone]

DAMN YOU!!!

My wallet is going to hate me this month, I hate December. ><

Steam sales gonna get you too.

[Kelimbror]

Steam sales gonna get you too.

Yep, was just going to say that lol.

[jvbastel]

Steam sales gonna get you too.

No I'm immune to steam sales. *buries his credit card*

[RoninaThorstone]

No I'm immune to steam sales. *buries his credit card*

It can still get you through your paypal account BWAHAHAHA

[jvbastel]

It can still get you through your paypal account BWAHAHAHA

hmm, if I throw away my Cell phone, I can't use google authenticator to log in to lastpass, thus I can't log into my paypal account because I don't know my password!!!!

[Razael]

Darth hater just posted some replies on its website , from droids, yellows or whatever.
The most recent gear will still be better than the quest gear offered throughout the planet. The planet is also about the same size of their bigger planets (i assume they mean Voss, Hoth etc.). Which is BS. I'll clear that in 3 hours. So much for an expansion.
Also , one aditional active ability per sub class. Like some classes didnt have enough ability bloat already.

[Bizzaro Stormy]

Am I the only one that sees how SWTOR has switched from a themepark MMO to a sandbox MMO in front of our eyes?

Not the way you think - SWTOR is still linear as hell. But it's now become a sort of "conceptual sandbox" MMO. Objectively, SWTOR completely failed (or just completely failed to meet expectations) and bled out a massive amount of subscribers. What's left of the wreckage is a couple hundred thousand folks who will, almost literally, put up with anything EA throws at them, solely because of the strength of the Star Wars brand.

This is completely unique - no other IP has that kind of power. In that context, EA has the perfect opportunity to freely experiment with SWTOR however they want, in a consequence free environment (the consequences were already paid when about 2 million people bailed on the game).

So now we see them tacking DLC onto a subscription game; turning an MMO into what amounts to Vegas-light via "gambling packs;" trickling out the bare minimum of content (not as it's developed, but rather hording what's done and presenting it piecemeal); releasing bugs willy-nilly; charging Huttloads of real money for subpar cosmetic items; selling high-end items for real money (I'd call it P2W, but if you want to argue semantics go argue somewhere else); creating a cash shop that will operate as an alternative to gearing up in game; all but eliminating customer service or community outreach.

Some of this is breaking new ground; some of it is just an expansion of ideas used in other games, but in the end, EA is in a great position (not just for their company, but for the industry as a whole) to see just how much a dedicated core of subscribers will actually pay to play an MMO. The one thing they haven't done is straight up increase the cost of a monthly subscription, and to be honest, I'm a little surprised that they haven't done so (yet). I mean, if you're paying $15/month anyway, what's another $10 bux? That's just a meal at McDonalds, including a desert, right? I know lots of people who would pay $25 a month for a subscription, for such an awesome game!

That's how I see it. EA is gauging just how much a dedicated subscriber base really will pay for an MMO, by answering a series of questions:

1) How much will subscribers pay, in addition to their subscription, for additional content? What is the lower limit for how much content these subscribers will pay for? What is the upper limit in price for how much these subscribers will pay? I think it was genius to reveal the new DLC scheme the way they did, with as few facts as possible. It's a great way to gauge just how much (or how little) certain subscribers will expect in exchange for additional costs. Think about it: if a quarter of current subscribers quit over this, but 3/4 are willing to shell out extra money for a small-ish content update - you've just found a way to wring more money from a limited player base.

2) How important is customer service? If a dedicated population will not react to lousy customer service/no communication by unsubbing, is there really a need for customer service/community outreach. Remember, the millions that already left are gone - we've got a dedicated playerbase left standing.

3) How much money will a dedicated subscriber spend on fluff per month, especially gambling packs? Will that effectively double, or maybe triple, that subscriber's monthly expenditures? Gambling packs are cheap to produce, and while they add nothing at all to gameplay, they can operate as a method of indirectly increasing a subscriber's monthly fee - assuming you continue to update them on a regular basis, providing new reasons for the subscriber to keep buying them. Then you need to figure out if adding one fantastic item with a 1/500 drop rate is enough to convince players to spend $15/mo on gambling packs, or if you need to increase the drop rate/add more items . . . or if you can get away with reskinning previously created items/further decrease the drop rate and still see net profit. Forum folks were proudly proclaiming the hundreds of dollars they already spent on gambling packs, and if that type of revenue can be maintained, a smaller subscriber base is needed to make a profit.

4) Assuming a dedicated subscriber base, how many people will P2W? This one is really interesting, because those who are more than willing to pay real money for gear will also eagerly split hairs over what "P2W" really means, and do EA's work for them. SWTOR has already gone on the record as seeing the cash shop as an alternative method to gearing, and taken the first tentative steps towards P2W with the latest offerings. What they need to figure out is whether there is some sort of limit to how much they can charge for gear, or how high of a level that gear can be, before losing the remaining dedicated subscribers. Perhaps, through trial and error, EA can find a ratio where "if it takes x amount of hours to obtain this piece of gear, on average, a dedicated subscriber will not balk at paying y for the same item" and just apply the ratio across the board.

5) How much will a dedicated subscriber actually pay monthly, and how many dedicated subscribers would leave at that rate? This one is the most delicate, but could also be very lucrative. Dedicated subscribers will not only pay for, but will outright defend, any of the actions discussed above, and can rationalize doing so by explaining how all of those revenue streams are "optional." However, a true across the board subscription increase might be too much, unless handled correctly. Perhaps creating yet another tier of subscriptions, that comes with an additional cartel coin stipend and access to another sort of VIP lounge. Or maybe just doubling the cost of subscription, and seeing if you can retain at least half of your dedicated subscriber base. One big benefit of doing so is that many MMO players just let their subscriptions run, even if they're not actively playing, whereas cash shop purchases/buying DLC require more player interaction.

I'm sure there are even more ways of milking a dedicated subscriber base; these are just the obvious ones/options being deployed by EA in SWTOR (with the exception of directly increasing subscription fees). It is undisputed that most of the remaining playerbase in SWTOR will have few concerns over most of these options; the questions to be answered are ones of degree (finding lower and upper limits).

The one huge, unanswerable question, however, is whether this situation is unique to SWTOR (given the Star Wars IP) or whether it can be expanded to other MMOs as well. This type of experimentation appears to require a playerbase that has been pared down to a very core, very dedicated playerbase that has something of the "please sir, may I have another" mentality. However, from a pure business standpoint, if you can lose 70% of your playerbase but can, in turn, come fairly close to recapturing that revenue from the remaining 30% through other means, your success is all but assured.

The huge downside, of course, is that this is not going to help you increase your subscriber base in any way - in fact, it presupposes that you are willing to accept losing a significant portion of your subscribers in exchange for a smaller, more concentrated, but more lucrative subscriber base.

EA is certainly keeping things interesting

[Deleted]

Darth hater just posted some replies on its website , from droids, yellows or whatever.
The most recent gear will still be better than the quest gear offered throughout the planet. The planet is also about the same size of their bigger planets (i assume they mean Voss, Hoth etc.). Which is BS. I'll clear that in 3 hours. So much for an expansion.
Also , one aditional active ability per sub class. Like some classes didnt have enough ability bloat already.

As we don't know for sure it's all guesswork on how much/little content RotHC will have. I very much doubt you'll be able to level up the 5 new levels in 3hrs though. Also as they like to string info along they did point out that 'more secrets to be revealed'. That implies to me that the patch (I'm having trouble calling it an expansion...I may get there eventually) will include more than just 2 planet stories and 5 levels of content.

I understand everyone's pessimism but I find it hard to be so until more info is released. Some are making sweeping statements based solely on guesswork. We simply don't know about the content size, we're all just guessing based on our own prejudices (pro/against BW).

My 'guess' is that the content will be sufficient for many people considering the price. I further 'guess' that the quality of the quests will be exceptional and that there's some 'hidden' nugget that we will all love about the...patch. Guesswork until the actual facts are released.

[Boramir]

Most of the arguments about the trust factor that BW/EA is destroying in it's playerbase I agree with.

However, anyone who is still perplexed why the fee for this patch/xpac is cheaper for subs that f2p'ers boggles my mind. Subs should and will always get things for free/reduced cost because they pay a monthly fee for such things. F2p'ers are not required to pay anything to play... quality of life items do not count as they are completely optional. I know, I know "but how can I play with only 2 action bars? or without running 55 fp's and 32 wz's a day?" Guess what... the option for you to be able to have all those things you want is there (who knew)!!! Just sub!

I can't get over the sense of entitlement some people have. "Why should I have to pay for this qol feature when subs get it for free?" Well, that's because you're not paying for shit and subs are! You want more content... pay for it like the rest of us do!

Now, as far as this whole content portion of this xpac/patch. It's one planet that's roughly the size of some of the larger planets already in game. People seem to forget that on all of these planets we have quested on, we've not circumnavigated any of them. We have been relegated to the small quest areas/hubs that were open to us. Maybe this new planet will be bigger in scope, meaning, we will actually get to see more of it if they have more quest areas/hubs scattered over the surface of Makeb. I am currently getting around 2-2.5 levels per planet currently before my class quest line takes me to a new planet. As such, I don't see very much of these planets as it is because I don't do all of the quests before I move on. Maybe, just maybe, the amount of quests we will have to do to gain 5 levels on one planet will be spread out over more of the planet so we actually get to see more of it than any other of these larger planets we already have visited?

I could be wrong of course. I mean as of today, we still do not know ALL of what they intend to put in this new xpac/patch... I'm just sayin'.