Subtlety rogue viability

[theherecy]

Anyone played sub this expansion and could comment on if it is decent damage or not. Checking simc puts it highest, both now and when you equip BIS, for sustained damage and I know it has better burst than mut.

The problem is nobody seems to use it, as evidenced by worldoflogs rankings. The top 40 mut rogues average between 10% of each other, sub varies by almost 30%. There aren't even 100 rogues that play the spec on some fights

Any advice would be appreciated.

[zoomgpally]

Im not a rogue, but most rogues i know say sub is the hardest rogue spec in pve, and you lose more overall dps from one mistake than the other specs.
simc doesnt account for misclicks or stupidity afaik, which may be why it sims highest
(perfect played sub will outdps perfect player mut/combat, but its so hard to play it perfectly)

[theherecy]

Well, I did factor this in to the possible reasons, I've played sub before and I gathered it was a much harder but fun spec than assass. I can't belive though that any decent rogue wouldn't jump on the opportunity to get that extra 2% or so more DPS.

[Hamhead223]

I've played Sub this expansion in pretty decent gear, and it's not a hard spec whatsoever. It got simplified in Mists of Pandaria and is now similar to combat in a sense, Sub is all about taking advantage and optimizing your damage during Find Weakness, similar to how Combat takes advantage of Bandits.

The spec itself is viable to a extent, on a majorly single target fight it is definitely viable, but Assassination beats it. I've played it for a full raid on heroic Mogushan and didnt do a ton lower than Assass on Feng/Garajal/Spirit Kings but Assassination is definitely better.

The mastery buff in 5.2 (if it goes through) may make it more on par, we shall see but right now if you know how to play the spec (I don't btw, only reason i did good was cause nobody plays the spec) you can definitely be competitive.

[theherecy]

Thanks for the help, i still find it strange how it is less competitive than assass, maybe somewhere between t14 normal and t14 HC assass pulls through?

My main reasons for wanting to take it are that it will get a buff in 5.2 and likely be more competitive and it naturally lends itself to higher dps when you can take advantage of short dps buffs on the boss. Something like HC stone guards increased damage, windlord HC increased damage, although both of these demonstrate combat's cleave and assass' aoe but you get the idea.


If it's an easyish spec to play how come nobody plays it, even though the results should be better?

[Hamhead223]

Thanks for the help, i still find it strange how it is less competitive than assass, maybe somewhere between t14 normal and t14 HC assass pulls through?

My main reasons for wanting to take it are that it will get a buff in 5.2 and likely be more competitive and it naturally lends itself to higher dps when you can take advantage of short dps buffs on the boss. Something like HC stone guards increased damage, windlord HC increased damage, although both of these demonstrate combat's cleave and assass' aoe but you get the idea.


If it's an easyish spec to play how come nobody plays it, even though the results should be better?

Like i said, the results shouldnt be better. Assassination is superior on every boss, maybe with a buff and higher ilvl gear sub can pull ahead as i imagine it scales better.

[Mazius]

Im not a rogue, but most rogues i know say sub is the hardest rogue spec in pve, and you lose more overall dps from one mistake than the other specs.

It was hardest (and most rewarding in late tiers) in Cata, it's not hard now, it's probably gonna be best single target PvE spec in later tiers (agility scaling, you know), but i''s not on par even with combat (single target) atm.

[theherecy]

It was hardest (and most rewarding in late tiers) in Cata, it's not hard now, it's probably gonna be best single target PvE spec in later tiers (agility scaling, you know), but i''s not on par even with combat (single target) atm.

Strange, I know it's only a guidance tool but simc definitely stands by sub being top in normals (like im in now) and BIS gear. Do you have any sources to say otherwise other than worldoflogs which, again, is completely skewed by the lack of sub-playing rogues?

[Demeia]

You have a positional requirement for backstab and I personally wouldn't want to mess with that. Much better rogues than me seem to shy away as well.

It would have to be drop dead fabulous to make me want to mess with needing to be behind someone. My poor direction sense would make that a little scary. I'd just hate to hit a button and not realize I'm doing anything until I've capped energy.

[theherecy]

You have a positional requirement for backstab and I personally wouldn't want to mess with that. Much better rogues than me seem to shy away as well.

It would have to be drop dead fabulous to make me want to mess with needing to be behind someone. My poor direction sense would make that a little scary. I'd just hate to hit a button and not realize I'm doing anything until I've capped energy.

Unless you've got a tank who's been playing too much PVP, most bosses remain static for the fight. None of them strike any problems, like ultraxion does. Every rogue spec requires you to be at the back of the boss anyway, even if the tooltip doesn't say it, unless you enjoy the DPS loss...

[Mazius]

Strange, I know it's only a guidance tool but simc definitely stands by sub being top in normals (like im in now) and BIS gear. Do you have any sources to say otherwise other than worldoflogs which, again, is completely skewed by the lack of sub-playing rogues?

No1 plays sub because it's not competetive. Just check number of registered sub rogues for empress HC kills, for example.

[theherecy]

No1 plays sub because it's not competetive. Just check number of registered sub rogues for empress HC kills, for example.

It seems you completely missed the point, I already said I'm ignoring the amount of people who play it. Rogue populations is low, for all I know the few who do play it enjoy the strong cleave or the simplicity of assass.

[Mazius]

Rogue populations is low, for all I know the few who do play it enjoy the strong cleave or the simplicity of assass.

It has nothing to do with "simplicity" or "strong cleave". You have dual spec and have to play most efficient spec for current bossfight.
Sub obviously not competetive with combat for cleave fights and way worse than assa for sinlge target.
P.S. Rogues in top guilds can play whatever spec they like on farm bosses, occasionally they play sub. Check Garajal HC kills in WoL (Patchwerk-type boss for rogues) and compare numbers for sub with combat/assa, for example.

[theherecy]

It has nothing to do with "simplicity" or "strong cleave". You have dual spec and have to play most efficient spec for current bossfight.
Sub obviously not competetive with combat for cleave fights and way worse than assa for sinlge target.
P.S. Rogues in top guilds can play whatever spec they like on farm bosses, occasionally they play sub. Check Garajal HC kills in WoL (Patchwerk-type boss for rogues) and compare numbers for sub with combat/assa, for example.

I agree to play the most efficient spec, which according to simc is sub. Where are your sources to say sub isn't competitive? And I've spent a long time on world of logs, I frequently use it each week. From my experience it's best to take it with a pinch of salt.

I know simc tells me sub is <1% better than assassination and lets be honest its 2x as hard to play. So even the pro-est of pros is gonna feel that assassination is a better spec to play simply because they can keep their eye on the ball easier, keep track of dbm events, raid cd's that sort of thing.

So please don't quote world of logs as being the legit, definitive proof that sub is worse. Like I said 1% is nothing in the grand scheme of things so I understand why people are opting out...

[Enhshamanlol]

It was hardest (and most rewarding in late tiers) in Cata, it's not hard now, it's probably gonna be best single target PvE spec in later tiers (agility scaling, you know), but i''s not on par even with combat (single target) atm.

Lol. When I played sub. I was beating a combat rogue with the same gear as me. combat is still the worst single target spec imo. I can pull 100-110k as mut with my current gear as mut and about 5-7k less as sub depenting on how I play, Sometimes more. sub is ok, but mut is better.

---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 02:09 AM ----------

No1 plays sub because it's not competetive. Just check number of registered sub rogues for empress HC kills, for example.

Again. it's is. its just more watching and if you play mut/combat you can watch what's going around you much easyer than sub.

[theherecy]

Again. it's is. its just more watching and if you play mut/combat you can watch what's going around you much easyer than sub.

This was pretty much what I was describing and why I believe most rogues would choose assass, not because the damage is less, that is debatable, but because the insane downtime between muts that allows for checking of surroundings, timers, etc.

[Enhshamanlol]

This was pretty much what I was describing and why I believe most rogues would choose assass, not because the damage is less, that is debatable, but because the insane downtime between muts that allows for checking of surroundings, timers, etc.

Yep!. I do like playing sub tho. and so I do.

[Mazius]

I can pull 100-110k as mut with my current gear as mut and about 5-7k less as sub depenting on how I play, Sometimes more. sub is ok, but mut is better.

Tbh 110k is kinda low, and without specifics it says nothing. I could pull 120k on on Garajal, haven't played combat there for while tho. Tried sub, was behind my own numbers (as combat) with perfect rotation.

I agree to play the most efficient spec, which according to simc is sub. Where are your sources to say sub isn't competitive?

From my personal experience. 503 ilvl, 13/16 HC.

Again. it's is. its just more watching and if you play mut/combat you can watch what's going around you much easyer than sub.

You have perfect testing dummy - Garajal HC. Nothing to watch, nothing to do except DPS. Go for it, post results.

[Enhshamanlol]

Tbh 110k is kinda low, and without specifics it says nothing. I could pull 120k on on Garajal, haven't played combat there for while tho. Tried sub, was behind my own numbers (as combat) with perfect rotation.

From my personal experience. 503 ilvl, 13/16 HC.

I'm not talking about pure single target like Garajal. I haven't really done that fine since I moved server. Last time I did it(3-4 weeks ago and much lesser gear) I was pulling that much.

[theherecy]

Tbh 110k is kinda low, and without specifics it says nothing. I could pull 120k on on Garajal, haven't played combat there for while tho. Tried sub, was behind my own numbers (as combat) with perfect rotation.

From my personal experience. 503 ilvl, 13/16 HC.

Garajal a boss that has phasing issues as well as a buff that may benefit some specs better than others, hardly the best to compare. Feng would be the best..

I would also imagine that in a raid team that has almost cleared tier 14 you don't exactly get the longest time to try new specs, so I would also imagine that your personal experience is small. Not to knock you down, thanks for your input.