Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Polarthief]

As long as this game is math based, EVERYTHING is RNG.

OH. OKAY SWIZZLE. *rolls eyes*

Swizzle, come on. Don't be so silly. I know everything is RNG, but Fire's retardedly more RNG than anything except drop rates of loot.

The "Rollercoaster of Arcane"(tm) isn't over yet:

DPS Tuning
- We continue to tweak Arcane numbers, so if you're trying to theorycraft Arcane, you may want to hold on for a bit longer. At the moment, we have restored Arcane Charges back to +50% damage and +150% mana cost but reduced the damage of Arcane Blast (-22.2%), Arcane Missiles (-22.2%) and Arcane Barrage (-13.6%).

Sauce.

Just in, off the presses.



Edit:
I'm not sure where the coefficient changes from the previous iteration go with this. Are they still part of the change? Did they get reverted? Does anyone know whats going on anymore? Will the new pope sh!t in the woods just like the old one did? Will they hear the new pope?

Welcome to Chaos boys. Enjoy the ride.


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!!

You'd think after this many tweaks, they'd finally realize they failed epicly.

Kinda like how it took them all of Cata and a year of DS to finally admit Cataclysm was a failure (not financially, but rather gameplay wise)

[Reith]

*snip*

Oh, please. Just be thankful that they're working as hard as they can to make sure you're still competitive.

[Polarthief]

Oh, please. Just be thankful that they're working as hard as they can to make sure you're still competitive.

If that was possible. They're trying to put us in an area where we're on par with everyone else while at the same time being incapable of "cheating", something that will be next to impossible to achieve without gutting the specc entirely.

Also, this thread is for discussion; not settling for what they're doing if we don't agree. If we just settled, these 60 pages of comments would be meaningless, no?

[Imnick]

@ZomgDPS: I just don't like you acting smug for predicting something when you very specifically say in your post that people will both dislike and not play Arcane. You're only half right (and hell I don't even dislike the spec that much, I just know you do).
I do in fact have a handy link to your exact words rather close at hand, I did read them before posting

You'd think after this many tweaks, they'd finally realize they failed epicly.

And then... what? Delete the Arcane spec?
What do you think they would do after realising they failed in their design? Do you think maybe... they'd try and fix it?
What do you think they are doing now, if not reacting to a design that they think has failed?

[Akraen]

Honestly to me, it sounds like you simply don't like how Arcane plays so you want it to be a different spec. However, you enjoy the thematics of "being an arcane mage" therefore you want the design team to adjust around you.

The mastery concept of mana management is unique and helps fight against the accusations of homogenization. Without that, I fear you'll end up with a proc based ramp-up system that'll be identical to fire and frost. The realization of the similarity between frost and fire is now mainstream, so imagine if arcane also lost its spec identity.

The only fixes are radical ground-up changes which won't happen until 6.0, I imagine.

Personally I'd like to see anything along the lines of:
Arcane: Mana management, complex cyclical rotation.
Fire: Blood mage DoT-based DPS with alternative resources.
Frost: Controlled burst similar to how it currently is, take or leave the pet.

[Polarthief]

And then... what? Delete the Arcane spec?
What do you think they would do after realising they failed in their design? Do you think maybe... they'd try and fix it?
What do you think they are doing now, if not reacting to a design that they think has failed?

I never said to delete it; I feel like they're trying to salvage their failed design rather than scrap it and try again.

In a similar example, you're way of "fixing" Warlocks would have been number tweaks rather than a revamp, right?

---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 05:20 PM ----------

Honestly to me, it sounds like you simply don't like how Arcane plays so you want it to be a different spec. However, you enjoy the thematics of "being an arcane mage" therefore you want the design team to adjust around you.

I never said I dislike how Arcane plays, I just agree with a few others here that the stand-and-nuke, mixed with Mana management mechanics simply don't work or are too hard to balance without a revamp.


Regardless, I don't WANT to be Arcane anyways, so I'm more or less a neutral bias. After having played it, it feels so... awkward.

---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 05:23 PM ----------

The only fixes are radical ground-up changes which won't happen until 6.0, I imagine.

Personally I'd like to see anything along the lines of:
Arcane: Mana management, complex cyclical rotation.
Fire: Blood mage DoT-based DPS with alternative resources.
Frost: Controlled burst similar to how it currently is, take or leave the pet.

I'd like the Fire one, assuming it's more or less what it is like now (kind of), with a bit less Burst and a bit more DoTs, mixed with the alt resources (would kill for any kind of alt resource!)

[zomgDPS]

The mastery concept of mana management is unique and helps fight against the accusations of homogenization.

I think the difference is, I actually speak in exact words whereas most just talk of 'over the cloud - up in the air - hypothetical' concepts


Pray, do tell, where exactly in the Arcane spec are you in fact managing mana. When does the following concept ever cross your mind:

"I better save my mana now, so that I can use it later".

I'm not talking up in the air hypotheticals. I'm talking down in the trenches facts. When does an Arcane mage today face any kind of decision point where he must throttle his stack usage down in order to save mana, so as to use it at a more optimal time in the fight. That is management; when you save a resource here, to use it later there. Healers do this all the time. Use cheaper heals now, so that the big heals can work later. Arcane mages do not do this at all.

Again, it is all fine and dandy to just make up these lofty goals up in the clouds. Goals such as "we want Arcane mana model to work like healers", but it fails in practice. That is key.


You want to go deeper? Sure. Lets go deeper

When, or better yet, HOW does an Arcane mage actually even convert excess mana into damage in the first place? These are not 'up in the air lofty tofty' goals I'm talking about. These are factual on the ground concepts. Show me the cycles that do this. Show me how they are optimal. Show me the math. You cannot, since none exists. Using the cyclical ABx4 AM ABr is the highest DPS, much more than burning mana. This is the point. As an Arcane mage, you do not have the tools to do what it is you are supposed to do.


It seems that for all the people who sit there and proclaim that Arcane is this joyous spec based around mana management, not a single one of them can actually answer these questions I am asking. Questions that are based on factual 'on the ground' observations and analysis. Questions that are not based on some 'up in the air' concepts.

It is easy when you sit 10,000 feet in the air and say "yea.. everything looks good from here". But when you fail to answer these core questions about the spec down on the ground, you cannot hope for anyone objectively to agree with you.



Now, I'm not saying you do or don't like Arcane, as a matter of fact, if you looked at my points, you will realize what you "like" is irrelevant.

I'm talking about a fundamental disconnect on what you and Blizzard is saying Arcane is vs what it actually is.


You and Blizzard say Arcane is about mana management. I show that it is not, it is at best, about "proc fishing" since that is really all you are doing (yes... even with the stupid 'scorch camping' strategy, all you are doing is fishing for procs. Mana never comes into the picture).


And that is the key failure. This has nothing to do with what I personally want Arcane to be. Fuck, my main is a lock for christ's sake. What this is about is about us stop trying to fool ourselves and be intellectually honest with ourselves and each other.


Arcane is billed as a 'mana manamgement spec'. It isn't, it is a 'proc fishing' spec. It is precisely that conundrum that I have always attempted to be bring into the light. In my zeal however, I get labeled as some form of purist with an agenda. I have, over the past months, toned down my zeal, if nothing else, but to show that the points I am actually making are sound.


Don't let your own zeal blind you now.


The stark contrast between 'design concepts' and reality is what I bring to you.

[Imnick]

I never said to delete it; I feel like they're trying to salvage their failed design rather than scrap it and try again.

In a similar example, you're way of "fixing" Warlocks would have been number tweaks rather than a revamp, right?

That was their way too, number tweaks until an expansion.
So yes, it would.

[Polarthief]

That was their way too, number tweaks until an expansion.
So yes, it would.

Okay, and Arcane still fundamentally failed in both Lich King and Cataclysm, and they STILL Didn't revamp. Oh look, Arcane Charges instead of Arcane Blast debuffs! WHAT A NEW MECHANIC!

Lol nope. It just makes other spells do more damage with charges without changing a thing about the specc.

Regardless, Arcane is going to remain as too OP or too UP. It's going to be really hard to find a middle ground when its core mechanics are flawed (much like zomgDPS has been saying forever, much like he says in YOUR SIGNATURE as well which he predicted months and months ago)

[Imnick]

We may be talking about two different ZomgDPSs here but I'm pretty sure the one I am thinking of does not argue that WotLK and Cataclysm Arcane were fundamentally awful?
I actually have a feeling I remember him shouting at me for daring to suggest that all we did was mash one button repeatedly

I don't know I get the feeling you're trying to invoke scary names to frighten me away here rather than making an actual point.
Which Arcane should we be emulating? TBC?

[Polarthief]

Not a Mage thing, but I felt it was relevant to post our trinket info here.

Intellect DPS
- Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault – 15% chance on landing harmful spell. 45sec ICD.
- Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.56 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD.
- Breath of the Hydra – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from periodic spell. No ICD.
- Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.
- Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance – 1.00 RealPPM on critical harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.

Sinister Primal Diamond – 0.84 RealPPM on damage/absorb of harmful or periodic spell. No ICD.

[Imnick]

Vision of Lei Shen's ICD static between Normal/Heroic/LFR? Seems a lot lower a PPM than I'd have thought for a 4 second buff too, even one with that much stat on it.
The fact that the proc is identical across all three items just seems odd.

[Polarthief]

We may be talking about two different ZomgDPSs here but I'm pretty sure the one I am thinking of does not argue that WotLK and Cataclysm Arcane were fundamentally awful?
I actually have a feeling I remember him shouting at me for daring to suggest that all we did was mash one button repeatedly

I don't know I get the feeling you're trying to invoke scary names to frighten me away here rather than making an actual point.
Which Arcane should we be emulating? TBC?

Are you trying to say the 417 posts guy just above our posts isn't the same as the guy in your signature, who also has the same post count, avatar, and join date?

If Arcane was a mana-management specc back during LK/Cata (which it was SUPPOSED to be), then why was Mana not really an issue back then either? (Which is what he's arguing now)

[Imnick]

Are you trying to say the 417 posts guy just above our posts isn't the same as the guy in your signature, who also has the same post count, avatar, and join date?

If Arcane was a mana-management specc back during LK/Cata (which it was SUPPOSED to be), then why was Mana not really an issue back then either? (Which is what he's arguing now)

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post18191220
You tell me

I am really confused about why you are trying to use the words of someone else (who agrees with parts of your post sure, but as far as I can remember not the ones you are now trying to put into his mouth) instead of just providing your own >_>

[Swizzle]

If Arcane was a mana-management specc back during LK/Cata (which it was SUPPOSED to be), then why was Mana not really an issue back then either? (Which is what he's arguing now)

Arcane wasn't a mana management spec in WotLK (and it wasn't really a spec until then),it only became that with the addition of Mastery in Cata.

[mrgreenthump]

Not a Mage thing, but I felt it was relevant to post our trinket info here.

Intellect DPS
- Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault – 15% chance on landing harmful spell. 45sec ICD.
- Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.56 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD.
- Breath of the Hydra – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from periodic spell. No ICD.
- Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen – 0.50 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.
- Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance – 1.00 RealPPM on critical harmful spells and periodic spells. No ICD.

Sinister Primal Diamond – 0.84 RealPPM on damage/absorb of harmful or periodic spell. No ICD.

Can someone refresh me on how did RealPPM actually work ^^

[Imnick]

Can someone refresh me on how did RealPPM actually work ^^

This new system, nicknamed Real PPM, aims to give the random nature of procs, the scaling with haste, and the ability for us to balance them assuming a standard proc frequency. Here's the short version of how you can expect them to function:

Windsong is 2 Real PPM, and Elemental Force is 10 Real PPM.
Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit are 2 Real PPM, River's Song is 4 Real PPM, and Colossus is 6 Real PPM
Regardless of how you're attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average.
Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get.
This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).
Simple as that. Whether you're an Affliction Warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting purely Holy Lights, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you'll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.
We're excited to see how this proc system works out. If it works well, we may start using it for more types of procs. Feedback about how it feels is most welcome.

Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you're interested:
It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.
For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you've got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
The 'time since the last chance to proc' is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn't a guaranteed proc.

[Polarthief]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post18191220
You tell me

I am really confused about why you are trying to use the words of someone else (who agrees with parts of your post sure, but as far as I can remember not the ones you are now trying to put into his mouth) instead of just providing your own >_>

Don't quite get what words you want me to use.

Arcane is about mana-management as they say, which, let's be honest, it hasn't been in the slightest.

LK/Cata model: Switch between conservation phase (a few ABLs then AM) and a burn phase (spam ABL with cooldowns and pop Evo at around 30% mana)
Early/Live MoP model: (Intended) 6 stack ABL, use AM, ABarr. Rinse/repeat. (Unintended) Fish for AM proccs while keeping up a 6 stack of charges.
PTR model: (RoP) Nothing really changes from (Intended) above. (Invo) Spam ABL. Evo at around 15% mana. Rinse repeat.

Where is the part where we're supposed to actually manage mana? We get around that (and have for two expansions now and pushing a third) by using the mechanics they give us. We don't use the healer model (like zomgDPS mentioned) where we go "hmmm, I should save my mana now to do more damage later". Instead, you just follow this barely flexible rotation, much like any other DPS specc would.

[Firebert]

Can someone refresh me on how did RealPPM actually work ^^

Multiply it by the deniminator of the standard Haste multiplier (i.e. 1+Haste%) to get your own PPM.
15% haste on a 0.56RPPM proc would end up being 0.56*1.15PPM = 0.644RPPM.

If I remember correctly.

EDIT: Imnick has the blue post that's far more in-depth if you want to calculate when your next proc might be.

[Reith]

Can someone refresh me on how did RealPPM actually work ^^

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...e-information/