Patch 5.2 PTR Mage Changes

[Methusula]

Blizzard has a long history of using tier set bonuses to test out potential class changes and I think t15 is a perfect time to get back to this. It will be very interesting to see where they go with them this time around.

[zomgDPS]

Blizzard has a long history of using tier set bonuses to test out potential class changes and I think t15 is a perfect time to get back to this. It will be very interesting to see where they go with them this time around.

Indeed.

As a sidepoint, I always thought something similar to the t13 set bonuses could have made a fine addition to the Arcane spec as a mechanic.
While we wait, no harm in diving into that for a second.

Time Lord's Regalia
Set Bonuses

2 pieces: Your Arcane Blast has a 100% chance to grant Stolen Time, increasing your haste by 50 for 30 sec and stacking up to 10 times. When Arcane Power, Combustion, or Icy Veins expires, all stacks of Stolen Time are lost.
4 pieces: Each stack of Stolen Time also reduces the base cooldown of Arcane Power, Combustion, and Icy Veins by 5%.

The thing that I liked was this concept of Stolen Time. Something that we would build up, but then have to strategically use at some particular point in a fight for maximum effect. Sure, it was linked to AP (a cooldown) but that is not the important part in the idea.


In some way, I feel that is the kind of thing Arcane Charges should have been in some way. But as we all know, Arcane Charges are really nothing more than a slightly modified Rogue combo point system without the UI support.
Imho, that is one of the real reasons it sucks so much.

There really isn't anything strategic about Arcane charges, and because of this (and through extension) there really isn't anything that strategic about Arcane mana management (since the two are so closely linked).

Arcane today just goes in cycles, like a sine wave.
You build up your charges with either AB or AM and then you dump them with ABr, then rinse repeat /boring
(n.b. I'm not going to include the charge-'camping' strategy that people talk about since, as we all know with the 5.2 scorch nerf, it is not a gaemplay style supported by blizzhrd).

I think this is partly due to there being no real payoff to really using your mana strategically.

I mean, the thing that they call the 'mana management' aspect of the spec isn't really mana 'management' more like mana 'play-simon-says'. You either do it essentially exactly the same every time (e.g. stack to 6 then Abr, rinse repeat), or you're doing it wrong.
Its not 'management' since you aren't really "managing" anything. There is nothing dynamic about it. I guess at best we can say Arcane is the "AM proc management" spec. Which is just as boring as it sounds.

IMHO, a lot of this also has to do with the loss of Arcane's signature ability for burst on demand outside of cooldowns. (obviously stemming from what they did to AB's relative damage compared to ABr and AM).

In PvE, Arcane today really has absolutely no burst outside of cooldowns. This is a fundamental change for Arcane, and one of the reasons its hit a shit-patch in MoP.
Back in the day, Arcane would do fantastic burst during cooldowns, sure, but it was definitely no slouch when it needed to burn something outside of them too. This ability was something that really made the spec unique. This has been lost in MoP. Too bad, since it brought a lot of dynamic play to the spec in the past.


Arcane needs something to make it more dynamic again. Something along the lines of Stolen Time could help.

[Methusula]

Indeed.

As a sidepoint, I always thought something similar to the t13 set bonuses could have made a fine addition to the Arcane spec as a mechanic.
While we wait, no harm in diving into that for a second.

The thing that I liked was this concept of Stolen Time. Something that we would build up, but then have to strategically use at some particular point in a fight for maximum effect. Sure, it was linked to AP (a cooldown) but that is not the important part in the idea.


In some way, I feel that is the kind of thing Arcane Charges should have been in some way. But as we all know, Arcane Charges are really nothing more than a slightly modified Rogue combo point system without the UI support.
Imho, that is one of the real reasons it sucks so much.

There really isn't anything strategic about Arcane charges, and because of this (and through extension) there really isn't anything that strategic about Arcane mana management (since the two are so closely linked).

Arcane today just goes in cycles, like a sine wave.
You build up your charges with either AB or AM and then you dump them with ABr, then rinse repeat /boring
(n.b. I'm not going to include the charge-'camping' strategy that people talk about since, as we all know with the 5.2 scorch nerf, it is not a gaemplay style supported by blizzhrd).

I think this is partly due to there being no real payoff to really using your mana strategically.

I mean, the thing that they call the 'mana management' aspect of the spec isn't really mana 'management' more like mana 'play-simon-says'. You either do it essentially exactly the same every time (e.g. stack to 6 then Abr, rinse repeat), or you're doing it wrong.
Its not 'management' since you aren't really "managing" anything. There is nothing dynamic about it. I guess at best we can say Arcane is the "AM proc management" spec. Which is just as boring as it sounds.

IMHO, a lot of this also has to do with the loss of Arcane's signature ability for burst on demand outside of cooldowns. (obviously stemming from what they did to AB's relative damage compared to ABr and AM).

In PvE, Arcane today really has absolutely no burst outside of cooldowns. This is a fundamental change for Arcane, and one of the reasons its hit a shit-patch in MoP.
Back in the day, Arcane would do fantastic burst during cooldowns, sure, but it was definitely no slouch when it needed to burn something outside of them too. This ability was something that really made the spec unique. This has been lost in MoP. Too bad, since it brought a lot of dynamic play to the spec in the past.


Arcane needs something to make it more dynamic again. Something along the lines of Stolen Time could help.

Very true. Stolen Time has a more Arcane vibe to it already. It wouldn't even need to be renamed. It would be somewhat similar to the Arcane Blast cast reduction we had previously, only better since it would effect everything (hasted evo anyone?) and add a lot of gameplay depth as a result. Think about it, faster evocation, more mana regen, more Nether Tempest ticks, (or Living Bomb) obviously faster casts which would lead nicely into burn phases where we pop AP, mana gem, and other cd's when its strategically appropriate. All the while we would need to keep in mind that after our burn phase, the haste stacks will reset. I like it.

[Zathrendar]

But Mages have always had a multi-school toolkit though :U
Where do you draw the line?

It's not much to ask that any spells with a rotational potential be loyal to the spec. That is a pretty good line to draw.

[zomgDPS]

It's not much to ask that any spells with a rotational potential be loyal to the spec. That is a pretty good line to draw.

IIRC, blizzard mentioned in early beta that one of their design goals is to ensure that the core (read: rotational) aspect of a spec should not depend on a specific talent. This did not mean that talents shouldn't influence the rotation, but that talents should not necessarily be part of the DPS delivery process of a spec, or influence its comparative output.

i.e. its fine for scorch being a global way for mages to do mobile damage, but if scorch suddenly became the best way for frost to generate FoF procs, or if it became the only way for arcane to drop stacks, then that is a no-no.


The did also say, iirc, that the want spec 'purity' to come with this dps delivery process. i.e. in general, arcane mages will deliver arcane damage using arcane spells, similarly for frost and fire.

[Zathrendar]

The reason it's baseline is that it was already mandatory and it forced people to spec a certain amount of points in Frost, which limited what they could get otherwise and trust me, people complained. It being baseline doesn't ruin anything and removing it actually hurts Fire and Arcane more than anything, and I doubt anyone wants to hurt Fire and Arcane Mages in PvP.

So far it's succeeded in getting Deep Freeze nerfed and nerfed again, which impacts frost more than the other two specs. Arcane barely sees any benefit from Shatter as its cast time is too high, unless it uses instants. 4 sec DF is already close on useless, its stun component notwithstanding. Fire's RNG probably means it requires Shatter, to a degree, yet the only reliable way to get it is via DF or RoF. So far, Blizzard's response to this has been to nerf it due to the amount of burst it can grant. I think their approach has been to destroy frost's flavour further, and slowly nerf a signature spell of the class, when more creative approaches could have been taken. Shatter required a re-design and it's still not really had it. It's true that historically most PVPers would go for Shatter in conjunction with other talents, but that was never coupled with DF. You would therefore think they'd have first taken a look at a spell that has been accused of rendering mage PVP damage very binary and difficult to balance.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 01:32 AM ----------

IIRC, blizzard mentioned in early beta that one of their design goals is to ensure that the core (read: rotational) aspect of a spec should not depend on a specific talent. This did not mean that talents shouldn't influence the rotation, but that talents should not necessarily be part of the DPS delivery process of a spec, or influence its comparative output.

i.e. its fine for scorch being a global way for mages to do mobile damage, but if scorch suddenly became the best way for frost to generate FoF procs, or if it became the only way for arcane to drop stacks, then that is a no-no.

Scorch and LB are both pretty bad spells for this, though. You could've just as easily used the Orb spell for the talent trees since its primary purpose was utility rather than damage, unlike all three of the bomb spells. However, now Blizzard seems to be recanting on one of the three. They should also acknowledge that there is a problem when their core rotation for fire is considered dull. And it is. Scorch-weaving makes the spec more interesting. I know a lot of classes saw previously spec-unique spells become talents, but with Scorch and LB it just screams lazy design, rather than granting spells that were pivotal for particular gamestyles, e.g. Ice Barrier.

I agree that something like t13 should've been "baked" into the arcane spec. Same goes for t10, it also had a bonus that made arcane a lot more dynamic. The one thing I really want gone is 6 stacks though.

[Methusula]

I did see that GC tweeted today I believe, that mage talent choices were a little bland. Not sure what that actually means for us but at least it suggests they are looking at them.

[zomgDPS]

Its a pretty clear sign that they will focus in on some mage talent chagnes in 5.2. The change to Blazing speed and Invocation is probably the first of (hopefully) many salvos to that end.


The BEST thing we can do is give adequate feedback and get a consistent, concerted message across. We have to get them to hear us this time.

[Methusula]

Its a pretty clear sign that they will focus in on some mage talent chagnes in 5.2. The change to Blazing speed and Invocation is probably the first of (hopefully) many salvos to that end.


The BEST thing we can do is give adequate feedback and get a consistent, concerted message across. We have to get them to hear us this time.

Indeed, although this was the goal during beta and it was very successfully derailed by a certain female human frost mage... Going to they forums now, I am seeing the same thing happen again. The thread Terrorific started on the Damage Dealing forum was humming along nicely with some good points being made until it got bombed by green text that immediately derailed the discussion.

edit: the thread seems to be moving along again, although not at the pace it previously was.

In any event, we do need to make sure our point gets across this time and hope that for once, they agree with some of our concerns and can address them.

[Alione]

I am so glad that they are reducing the recurring cost of Arcane Blasts. If they are going to penalize "scorch-weaving", perhaps this will aid the Mastery: Mana Adept talent. I can clearly see the push towards being mastery focused, rather haste - regardless of gear.

[Zathrendar]

I did see that GC tweeted today I believe, that mage talent choices were a little bland. Not sure what that actually means for us but at least it suggests they are looking at them.

Probably means we can expect some re-designs. They have been very active in doing so with other classes, e.g. rogues.

[Imnick]

While I never bothered to check post history or just ask to confirm it, I was always under the impression that Kuni is privy to slightly more information than most of the rest of us for whatever reason.
That's just what various remarks during multiple patches have seemed to imply 0:

[zomgDPS]

I am so glad that they are reducing the recurring cost of Arcane Blasts.

This is already live, and has been pretty much since 5.1 dropped.


The only real change so far in 5.2 is the mana cost increase of AB from 1.5 to 1.667. This effectively makes each blast cost 10% extra mana:

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 06:55 PM ----------

Do you really think Water Jet is going to come in?

Its pretty much guaranteed given the Pet nova change already shown in the 5.2 notes.


Some form of waterjet will be implemented.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 06:56 PM ----------

I was always under the impression that Kuni is privy to slightly more information than most of the rest of us for whatever reason.

If this is true we should get Kuni to pump his contact for info. We need to gain insight into what they are thinking.

[Imnick]

I'm probably entirely wrong I just like the idea :V

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Do you really think Water Jet is going to come in? I only ask because they brought up Water Jet previously, and then scrapped it. I'll sit back and hope that you are right in terms of Water Jet (or another ability that allows us to generate FoF on immune targets).

If memory serves, it was only taken out because it wasn't a polished mechanic. It was just a delay, not scrapped.

If this is true we should get Kuni to pump his contact for info. We need to gain insight into what they are thinking.

Even if it was true, I'd probably have a gag order because of it. No, I just make safe bets.

[zomgDPS]

The real question, is Deep Freeze

As already discussed elsewhere, the focusing of all mage specs' burst into shatter (and deep) was something they did at the beginning of MoP. Removing deep from the equation is a pretty big change.

I wonder if they will do anything else with those two spells. Deeps breaking on damage is certainly a precedent, since its really the first stun in the game that breaks on damage.


They will probably change shatter a bit, maybe have it so it doesn't work with dots and maybe channels, just so bombs and incidental damage doesn't break it. They will prob move shatter to be a 'nuke only' spell, i.e. only works with AB, FB, FB, FFB, ABr, Pyro, IL etc etc

Not sure about AM though. Not having access to a full 4 seconds to push damage into an enemy with fully stacked AMs is a pretty hefty Arcane PvP nerf (not that arcane is doing well in pvp, but at least they can burn into a deep). If they keep AMs on shatter, then DF breaks on like the fist wave. If they don't, AM hits like a wet noodle on deeped targets, making the whole point of using it, pointless. Boned either way.


The overall nerf to mage burst is obvious. Though I can't escape the feeling that at the end of all this, when the dust settles, Frost will, undoubtedly, end up squarely back on 'top' of the mage pvp totem pole.


Which sucks. Hard.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

They could potentially make it break only on the last wave, if it's a concern.

[Soulstrike]

I am so glad that they are reducing the recurring cost of Arcane Blasts. If they are going to penalize "scorch-weaving", perhaps this will aid the Mastery: Mana Adept talent. I can clearly see the push towards being mastery focused, rather haste - regardless of gear.

any source on this?? 2s AB base cast time is bit meh would love to see some faster cast on AB,FB,frostbolt

[Swizzle]

It would be odd for Mages to have the only Stun in game that breaks on damage, but there are other work arounds. Perhaps lower damage done to Deep Frozen targets by 10-20%? Burst goes down for Mages across the board without removing Shatter as a mechanic and makes DF more favorable to control and CC than straight damage.

[zomgDPS]

They could potentially make it break only on the last wave, if it's a concern.

It would certainly help.

Though can they do this? Tech wise?

From my understanding, AM is different from other 'channeled' spells since its actually a script that fires 5 individual waves, each treated as its own missile. This is different from say the drains of a lock or a spriest, which are basically glorified channeled dots.


Nevertheless, if they can make shatter work with AM and still not break deeps, that would definitely be a start. Though at this time what we are really doing is damage control and patch-fixes.


The real issue, is still with Deep Freeze and Shatter and the over-reliance of all mage burst being funneled into that mechanic.
Though I guess that is for next expo.

Either way, keeping an eye on the evolution of the deep + shatter story will be key, perhaps even more so than a few of the other smaller changes (e.g. Illusion glyph. 30 mins? No thanks. 2 min CD. kkthxbai).