Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Deleted]

cool just making sure cheers.

[Medieve]

I don't know if it's already been covered in this thread but 73 pages is a lot to go through so I figured I'll just ask it. With the changes to affliction GoSac, will using GoSup be better/equal to using GoSac? (according to simcraft there's only a 5k or so dps difference in 5.1).

I've been testing different scenario's (reforges, native secondary amounts, targets and interrupts, that kinda crap), and I have yet to find a situation where GoSac was at least not even with GoSup, and is always vastly superior to GoServ. Unless they significantly alter or nerf GoSac, I don't see Aff ever not saccing a pet.

[EvreliaGaming]

I've been testing different scenario's (reforges, native secondary amounts, targets and interrupts, that kinda crap), and I have yet to find a situation where GoSac was at least not even with GoSup, and is always vastly superior to GoServ. Unless they significantly alter or nerf GoSac, I don't see Aff ever not saccing a pet.

Well, it's already better to use GoSup on Will of the Emperor, so any fights like that will be the same. It would be better on Primordius by far if pets werent bugged there.

[Medieve]

Well, it's already better to use GoSup on Will of the Emperor, so any fights like that will be the same. It would be better on Primordius by far if pets werent bugged there.

Depends. Overall DPS you get slightly more throwing DoT's, haunts, and refreshing shards as adds are plentiful (although, dependent again upon add/boss time alive). If you're looking for specific mob DPS, such as one of the bosses in Will, pet wins there. It's extremely hard to be precise here, since a great deal of it depends on Agony more than the pet. I would feel safest saying the overall damage is at least not a loss, but where you direct that damage can be heavily influenced depending on which Grim you pick in the Will scenario, which is where I came up with my original conclusion. It's incredibly hard to test/sim accurately since so much of it depends on length of time the adds are alive, which is also why Tsulong where adds die too quickly to warrant full DoT spread Sac wins again (assuming Tsulong could be attacked the entire time). Will seems to be the grey area where the two deltas between length of time adds are alive for DoT ticks vs adds or boss that live long enough to take enough pet damage meet where it's at most a wash. It also depends entirely on how quickly your raid blows up the adds as well. If Rages, in this example, are dead within a couple globals, you get more MG channels, more SB:SS refreshes, and more empowered DoT uptime on both bosses at least, which starts to favor Sac again. If you're having trouble killing all the adds, you won't necessarily have the optimal resources at hand to keep DoT's rolling efficiently, or channel much at all, and the pet gains favor again.

So I should have said, unless you need to keep constant reliable pressure on a boss or they significantly alter or nerf goSac, I don't see Aff ever not saccing a pet. The Will scenario is the outlier that probably depends more on how well you can manage multi-DoTting and/or a pet than actual Grim choice when it's all said and done. Personally, I think Destro and Demo handle this situation better anyway, but that's another argument for another thread.

[EvreliaGaming]

Depends. Overall DPS you get slightly more throwing DoT's, haunts, and refreshing shards as adds are plentiful (although, dependent again upon add/boss time alive). If you're looking for specific mob DPS, such as one of the bosses in Will, pet wins there. It's extremely hard to be precise here, since a great deal of it depends on Agony more than the pet. I would feel safest saying the overall damage is at least not a loss, but where you direct that damage can be heavily influenced depending on which Grim you pick in the Will scenario, which is where I came up with my original conclusion. It's incredibly hard to test/sim accurately since so much of it depends on length of time the adds are alive, which is also why Tsulong where adds die too quickly to warrant full DoT spread Sac wins again (assuming Tsulong could be attacked the entire time). Will seems to be the grey area where the two deltas between length of time adds are alive for DoT ticks vs adds or boss that live long enough to take enough pet damage meet where it's at most a wash. It also depends entirely on how quickly your raid blows up the adds as well. If Rages, in this example, are dead within a couple globals, you get more MG channels, more SB:SS refreshes, and more empowered DoT uptime on both bosses at least, which starts to favor Sac again. If you're having trouble killing all the adds, you won't necessarily have the optimal resources at hand to keep DoT's rolling efficiently, or channel much at all, and the pet gains favor again.

So I should have said, unless you need to keep constant reliable pressure on a boss or they significantly alter or nerf goSac, I don't see Aff ever not saccing a pet. The Will scenario is the outlier that probably depends more on how well you can manage multi-DoTting and/or a pet than actual Grim choice when it's all said and done. Personally, I think Destro and Demo handle this situation better anyway, but that's another argument for another thread.

Well, no. It's all about how much uptime you have on Malefic Grasp. If it's below a certain point, your pet would do more damage than the gain from sacrifice would provide. That's all it boils down to, and on Will of the Emperor, if you're playing properly, and assuming that your raid doesn't have out-of-this-world-high dps, those criteria are met. Just take a gander at WoL.

[Bonkura]

I'm sure at any multi target fight this tier we'll be running GoSup. Horridon and Council seem like obvious GoSup fights. Primordius too if they fix so pets get the buff when you get mutated.

For single target I'd like to see the math that have made you come to the conclusion that GoSac will still be better. It should be really close. The only argument I can see that would make sense to reach the conclusion of GoSac still being better is secondary stat scaling.

[Skayth]

1 With the buffs to demo and destro, I am wondering how they favor on single target fights (ie. straight up target dummy) vs affliction.
2 Same as above, but 2-4 targets (as cleaving usually favors destro,but then there is a council fight of 4)
3 Wondering if with destro, I will need to move away from mastery>haste from the nerf to gosac, or it should be perfectly fine (even on single target fights) or is gosac worth taking now as destro.
4 Demo, how is gosup vs goserv now? (honestly think they need to buff goserv, just for the other specs, but with that buff it would be slightly buffed for demo)

The reason why I ask this, is I hate, I absolutely hate affliction, and I hate seeing the two specs i like subpar to affliction (but in a cleaving environment, destro surpasses which I love) and people wonder why I go demo/destro rather than the op spec. But other than that, I want to see if the buffs actually did alot for the two specs, or just still as bad.

[Hatelocker]

1 With the buffs to demo and destro, I am wondering how they favor on single target fights (ie. straight up target dummy) vs affliction.
2 Same as above, but 2-4 targets (as cleaving usually favors destro,but then there is a council fight of 4)
3 Wondering if with destro, I will need to move away from mastery>haste from the nerf to gosac, or it should be perfectly fine (even on single target fights) or is gosac worth taking now as destro.
4 Demo, how is gosup vs goserv now? (honestly think they need to buff goserv, just for the other specs, but with that buff it would be slightly buffed for demo)

The reason why I ask this, is I hate, I absolutely hate affliction, and I hate seeing the two specs i like subpar to affliction (but in a cleaving environment, destro surpasses which I love) and people wonder why I go demo/destro rather than the op spec. But other than that, I want to see if the buffs actually did alot for the two specs, or just still as bad.

From what little I have heard from people testing on the PTR it looks like affliction is still king. However, I would only take that with a grain of salt and my current plan this weekend is to hop on the PTR and run the first wing of LFR a few times as each spec and see how it goes.

[Zinnin]

From what little I have heard from people testing on the PTR it looks like affliction is still king. However, I would only take that with a grain of salt and my current plan this weekend is to hop on the PTR and run the first wing of LFR a few times as each spec and see how it goes.

Affliction may still be good, but keep in mind that 95% of warlocks that play on PTR probably play affliction full time on live and spend very little time playing demo or destro. You can't trust people switching specs for the first time in months just for PTR to give very accurate feedback on balance.

For most of the fights I've tested on PTR I've played demo and have been more then competitive with the affliction locks in my raid, which still isn't accurate feedback.

[Ezzyo]

I'm sure at any multi target fight this tier we'll be running GoSup. Horridon and Council seem like obvious GoSup fights. Primordius too if they fix so pets get the buff when you get mutated.

For single target I'd like to see the math that have made you come to the conclusion that GoSac will still be better. It should be really close. The only argument I can see that would make sense to reach the conclusion of GoSac still being better is secondary stat scaling.

Although there are several fights where I'd agree gosup would be competitive with gosac, I'd disagree with those two in particular. My MG uptime on 10m normal horridon was quite significant, and with the 200% damage he takes (or was that not going live), I saw a higher return on sac. I can also see your point in council with 4 targets to maintain dots on however, with the empowered phases, the burstier reliability had me focusing more on two targets with mg spam thrown in.

[Skayth]

Affliction may still be good, but keep in mind that 95% of warlocks that play on PTR probably play affliction full time on live and spend very little time playing demo or destro. You can't trust people switching specs for the first time in months just for PTR to give very accurate feedback on balance.

For most of the fights I've tested on PTR I've played demo and have been more then competitive with the affliction locks in my raid, which still isn't accurate feedback.

Very nice. But with "around" the same gear level, where you nearly even with aff lock or a shard lower/higher(prob not higher)

[Deleted]

Did anyone else get a sinking feeling when they read this in the last blue post compilation on front page -

"why nerf arcane into the ground instead of buffing frost with a small arcane nerf?
Because Arcane is ahead of everyone else (along with Affliction). We'd have to buff everyone else (including the bosses)."

Almost makes it seem like they have further nerfs for Affliction in the works or something. Because let's be honest, that Affli nerf from GoSac is nothing much compared to the (very well justified mind you) nerfs Arcane got xD

Still, glad that Demo and Destro will also be competitive. Just need to hope they dont nerf Affli and force us to go Demo/Destro D:

[PickleballAce]

Did anyone else get a sinking feeling when they read this in the last blue post compilation on front page -

"why nerf arcane into the ground instead of buffing frost with a small arcane nerf?
Because Arcane is ahead of everyone else (along with Affliction). We'd have to buff everyone else (including the bosses)."

Almost makes it seem like they have further nerfs for Affliction in the works or something. Because let's be honest, that Affli nerf from GoSac is nothing much compared to the (very well justified mind you) nerfs Arcane got xD

Still, glad that Demo and Destro will also be competitive. Just need to hope they dont nerf Affli and force us to go Demo/Destro D:

The tweet is from February 11th, but there's a Blue post from GC only a few days ago:

Arcane and Affliction are high on many fights in 5.1, but they shouldn't be in 5.2

Either their testing in 5.2 is revealing to them that Affliction is fine or GC's post is reflecting a build with Aff changes we've yet to see.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...61?page=23#442

[Deleted]

Yeah, I couldnt find that post you linked, cheers!

Either way, not good signs :3 We must hold hands and pray.

[Kink]

The tweet is from February 11th, but there's a Blue post from GC only a few days ago:



Either their testing in 5.2 is revealing to them that Affliction is fine or GC's post is reflecting a build with Aff changes we've yet to see.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...61?page=23#442

I mean, we can't pretend affliction doesn't need nerfed slightly. It's just too damn high, if you are an "ok" player the spec does the rest for you and you top meters. Simple as that, the only hard part is micromanaging dots and their current power which there's an amazing addon for that.

[Deleted]

I got scared, when i read this on frontpage ...
Another nerf to affli (more than 5%) will force us to play Demo..(singletarget fights) And.. NOBODY want this! *cry*

Just pray..! If there is a WoW-God..... PLEASE let us stay Affliction!
I'll give you my money,.... my life!

[ykza]

Arcane was indeed very high but mostly due to scorch weaving, and it's single target was way better than Affli so even if we do get nerfed I wouldn't expect it to be huge. Though Blizz always overnerfs or overbuffs everything...

[xskarma]

I got scared, when i read this on frontpage ...
Another nerf to affli (more than 5%) will force us to play Demo..(singletarget fights) And.. NOBODY want this! *cry*

Just pray..! If there is a WoW-God..... PLEASE let us stay Affliction!
I'll give you my money,.... my life!

Well I can guarantee you that just as much as you are praying that Affliction stays on top for single target there are people praying Affliction gets nerfed to hell so they don't have to play it anymore. People have different opinions, you know, so saying nobody wants it is wrong

Btw, saying you'll give your life to stay affliction is kinda counterproductive, unless you're Horde and can roll Forsaken

[Deleted]

Come on.. do'nt be like that buddy
Just joking. You know what i mean!

And people playing warlock and want to get a affli nerfs... No comment to this. Everybody can play is favourit spec, if you do'nt like to play in highend progression. But pray for a nerf to the own class? I do'nt think so, man. Perhaps they pray for Demo/Affli pushes to the hell. But I'm sure nobody pray for nerfs

[Brusalk]

Come on.. do'nt be like that buddy
Just joking. You know what i mean!

And people playing warlock and want to get a affli nerfs... No comment to this. Everybody can play is favourit spec, if you do'nt like to play in highend progression. But pray for a nerf to the own class? I do'nt think so, man. Perhaps they pray for Demo/Affli pushes to the hell. But I'm sure nobody pray for nerfs

I think encounters and raiding in general is at it's best when specs are within reasonable bounds of each other. Something is just plain wrong if 2 specs in the game are easily topping meters for every fight. If there are specs that are way and above the others then it makes it harder for Blizzard to correctly tune encounters. Raids with lots of those comparatively overpowered specs will either have a super easy time with content because their damage is higher than the content is tuned for (in the case of Blizzard tuning with only one or two players of that spec in the raid for DPS check tuning), or even worse they balance around the assumption that there are a lot of those specs in a given raid group and the content is overtuned if you don't have them.

I don't see any reason I wouldn't want an overpowered spec to be balanced with the other specs as it allows the tuning of fights to be that much better and more precise. If you have classes or specs way above you either have to tune with lots of those specs in the raid group, or you have to tune with the assumption that there's maybe 1 or 2. Neither is a good option, and having overpowered specs makes it worse.

I want Affliction to be nerfed just as much as I want Arcane to be nerfed. It's not a matter of spec envy or anything like that. Encounters have the potential to be tuned better when there are no obviously overpowered specs. I want tightly tuned encounters that make DPSing fun for everyone, way more than I want to retain one or two overpowered specs out of a sense of self-importance by playing one of the said overpowered specs.