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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    They took out the stacking debuff that increased ice lance damage bei 15%
    No they didn't. The only change to the FB debuff is that it no longer gives FB itself the dmg buff. It still buffs all other spells.

  2. #22
    I plan on sticking with Fire. My guild is casual and we're in no hurry so it might be enough in the numbers department. However if Frost or Arcane pull way ahead of Fire, which at this point is a possibility, actually at this point everything is a possibility, I might respec, but everything in those datamined notes is going to change. It always does, so we just have to wait.

  3. #23
    Its a moot point about Frost being the top spec. Frost is the lowest or near lowest class on Spec Score and Median DPS for both Top 100 and median parses across all fights 10N, 10H. 25N and 25H on raidbots. The Frostbolt buff doesn't compensate for either the Invocation nerf (and yes it is a nerf) or the pet Freeze nerf. Frost is getting its DPS nerfed based on these patch notes. On top of that, the only scale factor for Frost is Haste and we're moving into the 2nd tier of raiding this expansion. Frost can not compete with other specs, not even the hybrids because it simply doesn't scale. If Frost becomes the top spec prepare to be benched because you are a burden on your raid group. You don't provide anything your guild can't find somewhere else for both better DPS and more utility.

  4. #24
    Kalgan is no longer on WoW. He has not been on WoW for literal years. What is wrong with you?

  5. #25
    Might aswell play my Frost DK now when mages are being nerfed both in PvP and PvE.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    They took out the stacking debuff that increased ice lance damage bei 15%
    No, they only took Frostbolt itself off that debuff, but increased it's damage by 24%.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    Its a moot point about Frost being the top spec. Frost is the lowest or near lowest class on Spec Score and Median DPS for both Top 100 and median parses across all fights 10N, 10H. 25N and 25H on raidbots.
    Ok firstly the raidbots numbers are not remotely accurate, looking at world of logs, a much better judge of the top dps a mage spec can pull. You will see that on fights like HC garajal (a basically straight single target nuke fight) that recent frost ranks compared with recent fire ranks (last 5 days) frost is on average beating our fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    The Frostbolt buff doesn't compensate for either the Invocation nerf (and yes it is a nerf) or the pet Freeze nerf.
    I've personally never had an issue regarding using rune of power in almost any fights. Using mobility like blink + other things like rocket boots for engineers etc you can move between two rings of power extremely easily, knowing the fights honestly makes using it not an problem and even if that isnt your thing if you look up the numbers regarding the invocation change in terms of frost it is literally no different to previously, shorter cast time + longer effect for a reduction in spell power increase works out pretty even on the numbers front. Also with the pet freeze nerf your talking about did that extra 1k dps every 25 seconds really bump us up the meters?

    Also you can see some of the numbers i personally get on my wow heroes Char - Guan
    Realm - EU-Kazzak
    Last edited by Guan; 2012-12-23 at 03:35 AM.

  8. #28
    The Insane Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I'm staying whatever spec I like. Honestly if you want to switch specs.. I have to wonder about fotm.(Been Arcane since Cata so don't go there)
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guan View Post
    I've personally never had an issue regarding using rune of power in almost any fights. Using mobility like blink + other things like rocket boots for engineers etc you can move between two rings of power extremely easily, knowing the fights honestly makes using it not an problem and even if that isnt your thing if you look up the numbers regarding the invocation change in terms of frost it is literally no different to previously, shorter cast time + longer effect for a reduction in spell power increase works out pretty even on the numbers front. Also with the pet freeze nerf your talking about did that extra 1k dps every 25 seconds really bump us up the meters?

    Also you can see some of the numbers i personally get on my wow heroes Char - Guan
    Realm - EU-Kazzak
    It's not so much that it doesn't work out mathematically comparing the two, it does, but 25% damage stacked with cooldowns better. There's no argument on this issue. It's 10% damage added into your ignites, and 10% more on orb/20% damage cooldown. It did have better synergy. We're losing some burst for what people wanted, a supposed QoL fix. Whatever, we'll deal with it and some will cry about it.

    To answer your question, yes. It's ~15 ice lances. That's ~2 million damage. A lot more than 1k DPS. That said, I fully expect water jet to show up in a polished form.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post

    To answer your question, yes. It's ~15 ice lances. That's ~2 million damage. A lot more than 1k DPS. That said, I fully expect water jet to show up in a polished form.
    "Freeze no longer does damage, and only provides Fingers of Frost on a successful freeze."

    Im not seeing how this is going to be a reduction in ice lances? Or by being a successful freeze is it implying you cant gain frost procs off Bosses? if so i've messed up a little :P

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Blutelf View Post
    Kalgan is no longer on WoW. He has not been on WoW for literal years. What is wrong with you?
    Kalgan ruined mages in BC

    All Mage problems are a direct result of Kalgan and "Jaw Dropping Damage"

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guan View Post
    "Freeze no longer does damage, and only provides Fingers of Frost on a successful freeze."

    Im not seeing how this is going to be a reduction in ice lances? Or by being a successful freeze is it implying you cant gain frost procs off Bosses? if so i've messed up a little :P
    It's implied that way. You don't get freezes for hitting nothing. The current tooltip states "Grants the Mage a charge of Fingers of Frost for each target hit by Freeze." Since the spell does damage, even against an immune mob, it's still "hit". They've removed the damage component, though.

  13. #33
    That kind of leaves the question of what exactly the point of those FoF charges is.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Guan View Post
    Ok firstly the raidbots numbers are not remotely accurate, looking at world of logs, a much better judge of the top dps a mage spec can pull. You will see that on fights like HC garajal (a basically straight single target nuke fight) that recent frost ranks compared with recent fire ranks (last 5 days) frost is on average beating our fire.
    Raidbots data is parsed using World of Logs. Relying only on top 100 parses on WoL opens the data to outliers, fight cheesers and all kinds of bias. Stating the raidbots numbers aren't accurate is funny because you're arguing that the parameter isn't accurate. Its the parameter. There are 16 boss fights this tier. Why are you determining the strength of Frost across the entire tier by measuring a single fight? HC Gara'jal isn't a straight number single target fight, saying this makes me think you haven't done the encounter, there are numerous mechanics Frost can use to cheese higher numbers. Not to mention your assertion is false: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara'...0/7/30/median/. This is data parsed specifically from the top 100 WoL parses over the last 7 days and as you can see Fire is 35% ahead of Frost so even under the faulty assumption that top parses are representative of class performance Frost is far behind Fire on the fight you're claiming Frost dominates Fire in. And don't bother using the mean instead of the median because the gap between Frost and Fire only grows from there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guan View Post
    I've personally never had an issue regarding using rune of power in almost any fights. Using mobility like blink + other things like rocket boots for engineers etc you can move between two rings of power extremely easily, knowing the fights honestly makes using it not an problem and even if that isnt your thing if you look up the numbers regarding the invocation change in terms of frost it is literally no different to previously, shorter cast time + longer effect for a reduction in spell power increase works out pretty even on the numbers front. Also with the pet freeze nerf your talking about did that extra 1k dps every 25 seconds really bump us up the meters?

    Also you can see some of the numbers i personally get on my wow heroes Char - Guan
    Realm - EU-Kazzak
    Someone already pointed this out to you but I'll reiterate it: even if on a buff-for-buff basis they provide the same average damage increase over time Invocation is still superior for DPS because it increases the DPET benefits of Frozen Orb, Icy Veins, Alter Time, trinket procs, potions, and any FoF/BF procs that line up with these cooldowns. Invocation will always be superior to RoP for Frost because of this and that is why the 5.2 patch notes are damage nerf for frost. People have already run sims on the removal of pet freeze on bosses and its around a 4% damage decrease to overtake the simmed 2% damage increase from the Frostbolt buffs, so even if you were using RoP over Invo out of stubbornness or ignorance, you're still getting a 2% damage nerf.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Guan View Post
    Ok firstly the raidbots numbers are not remotely accurate, looking at world of logs, a much better judge of the top dps a mage spec can pull. You will see that on fights like HC garajal (a basically straight single target nuke fight) that recent frost ranks compared with recent fire ranks (last 5 days) frost is on average beating our fire.

    Exept they are accurate, they take the numbers from WoL parces. They are the averages on what people are doing, be that Top 100 or average over all logged parces. And gara'jal as a benchmark.. oh my. Now we should start stacking arcane mages so that we have 13 arcane mages and rest of the raid to buff them yes? Sorry but with your logic that would prolly happen. Sure frost can pull nice numbers in single target, but that just abt it for frost, sure frozen orb is a nice cd on adds, But you still only have your bomb, ice lance, frostbolt and ffb + cd's there aint much you can do with those.


    But ye your are right in a way that top mages aren't frost atm, cause why would they?

    Oh and frost on gara'jal hc? Top mages on both 25 and 10 are at 120k dps.. and a direct drop down after that. A well geared fire mage with a bit of rng on his side will still pull over 130k maybe even 140k dps on it if he logs it and gets the damage buff, there just is no fire mages on Gara'jal atm.. while there still are both arcane and frost that can compete from rank 1 dps(within their spec)..

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That kind of leaves the question of what exactly the point of those FoF charges is.
    Trash, PVP, dailies, shit that'll die quickly and can be frozen. Stuff that likely won't survive long enough for the frostbolt+water jet to finish.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Trash, PVP, dailies, shit that'll die quickly and can be frozen. Stuff that likely won't survive long enough for the frostbolt+water jet to finish.
    Sounds like poop to me.
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  18. #38
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    You guys should hang out with us hunters. Bottom 3 of 4 specs on all the parses, and not a buff to be seen in these patch notes outside of some QoL changes.

    I mean, seriously, reading a thread about mages "being ruined" is literally laughable, we're not even that alarmist over in our corner.

  19. #39
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You guys should hang out with us hunters. Bottom 3 of 4 specs on all the parses, and not a buff to be seen in these patch notes outside of some QoL changes.

    I mean, seriously, reading a thread about mages "being ruined" is literally laughable, we're not even that alarmist over in our corner.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D.../all/7/30/avg/

    Yeah number 1 overall dps spec is rough.
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D.../all/7/30/avg/

    Yeah number 1 overall dps spec is rough.
    lol, 5th from the bottom spec score, and an overall DPS spec resulting from exactly what? I don't see a single fight where SV is even in the top 5. What is the overall dps score based on? The overall DPS in WoL? I hear trash AoE is a good measure of a class's viability. BM is 3rd on Spirit Kings H though, and 2nd on H-Vizier, due to movement, so that's good stuff. I suppose that next-to-last ranking in overall DPS for BM, the far superior (yet still lagging) hunter spec must be the be-all, end-all of arguments. Yay?

    Don't use "overall DPS" as an indication of everything. It includes everything in the logs, and yes, on trash SV can pull silly numbers because we're essentially not AoE capped.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2012-12-23 at 08:24 AM.

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