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  1. #121
    Blademaster
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    John Smedley (@j_smedley) just sent this tweet:

    we are VERY excited about the Playstation 4. Read into that what you will
    Is he trying to hint that EQN will also be on PS4?

  2. #122
    What.

    If Smed is hinting at anything EQ related for PS4 that isn't Champions of Norrath 3, all of my burning hatred.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-02-21 at 07:42 PM.

  3. #123
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    The more I think about it, Planetside 2 would fit better on a console. He probably means that.

  4. #124
    Hopefully its a true sandbox like Eve and not some mashed up pile of trash catered to the "oh i like sandbox and want to play one" crowd that havent played a true sandbox.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2013-02-21 at 10:37 PM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What.

    If Smed is hinting at anything EQ related for PS4 that isn't Champions of Norrath 3, all of my burning hatred.
    Couldn't agree more.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Thessik-Irontail View Post
    I am very excited about Everquest Next. Here is to hoping it can carry on the proud legacy of the original Everquest by defining and leading the MMO genre heading forward. I know that is a tall order to fill, but I do not think it is impossible for SOE, they have a lot of talent working there.

    Until we h ave more information about this game, the best we can do is hope. I wanted to echo some of the sentiments put forth by many others here, we need the MMO genre to take a step back in order to take a step forward.

    -XP death penalty: lets make the game scary again, lets make players second guess whether or not they want to go deeper into a dungeon.

    -Limited instant travel: lets have specialized teleports only like wizards and druids, and only to certain locations, no PoK books, no getting around the world in 30 seconds. Lets have the world mean something again.

    -No flying mounts that put you completely out of danger. I want to be immersed in the world, not flying above it.

    -No instances, especially for dungeons, please no damn instances. Instanced dungeons really ruined the experience for me and I have not been able to find the EQ experience since. I loved running into other groups in dungeons. Fighting deep into a dangerous dungeon to res some poor soul.

    -Yes to training mobs that are not leash bound to a radius. I want mobs to chase me until I zone. I also want mobs to agro any nearby players they run past.

    -No group finders at all. We need to be forced to use our nature group finder... socializing. I want a large social aspect to the game so that getting to know people in game matters.

    Here is to hoping that EQN delivers, it could be a bright MMO future if so.
    Completely agree. Make the MMO genre go back to when it was challenging and FUN.

    Give me a reason to log onto a game every day that doesn't involve doing the same repeatable quests every day to get mediocre crap I probably won't use.

    Give us back the social aspect of a multiplayer game. Not the "click a button and speed clear a dungeon with random people you won't even talk to" situation.

    Give us back the skill!! I played a monk in EQ for a reason ... splitting mobs made me useful to my group/raid. Not only that I enjoyed it. Being able to add in those type of situations in a game makes players think and use their brains instead of a website in order to learn how to do something.

    On another note - I do love the fact that a large majority of the people that played EQ heavily actually WANT all the hard parts of that game back, yet you can tell who most of the people that were not big into it are. The modern MMO players have been catered to for so long by Blizzard and other companies that if EQNext does give us what we want in terms of requiring skill to play, they will lose subscriptions. So while I have high hopes that's all they are

  7. #127
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessik-Irontail View Post
    we need the MMO genre to take a step back in order to take a step forward.
    Nope. In the world of MMOs, taking a step back is taking 10 steps back.

    For every one person that vocally says this, there are 1 thousand that would not play one second of that game. If they are really trying to accomplish their goal of creating something new, revolutionizing the experience for the masses, they are certainly not going to design a niche game based on outdated principles. Do those games have a place somewhere? Sure. Just not with their stated goals.

    No amount of vocal minority wailing on forums will change that.
    BAD WOLF

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Nope. In the world of MMOs, taking a step back is taking 10 steps back.

    For every one person that vocally says this, there are 1 thousand that would not play one second of that game. If they are really trying to accomplish their goal of creating something new, revolutionizing the experience for the masses, they are certainly not going to design a niche game based on outdated principles. Do those games have a place somewhere? Sure. Just not with their stated goals.

    No amount of vocal minority wailing on forums will change that.
    I actually really hope they make the game incredibly punishing and skill based, then there will be a place where people can flex their 20 inch hardcore epenis so we don't have suffer the constant complaints that all MMOs are easymode and for babies now and 10 years ago everything was punishing and don't forget to throw in some words like "entitled" and "silver platter" to make your point....

    Then all the people that want a niche punishing MMO experience can play together and be happy safe in the knowledge they are somehow more worthy than your average MMO player

  9. #129
    Kitty, your words are wise. But I hate them.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    For every one person that vocally says this, there are 1 thousand that would not play one second of that game.
    You say that like it's a bad thing.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  11. #131
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Kitty, your words are wise. But I hate them.
    I'm not sure that I like them myself, but I envision a lot of progressive changes that aren't necessarily bad for MMOs. A lot of people who want a hardcore niche game would choke on their tongues to read my ideas, but at some point you have to look at what's happening outside of our particular MMO boxes.

    I am definitely getting less and less hardcore as time goes on, simply because I don't have the time. For every legion of teens and tweens that could monopolize their time with games that ask that of them, there is an ever growing population of adults that just can't do that anymore. As every 4-6 years passes, the audience that has less time for MMOs grows while the audience who has all the time in the world for them remains fairly constant.

    More than anything you can probably point to that fact of aging as to why MMOs will have to evolve instead of cycling through their past.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 04:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You say that like it's a bad thing.
    It is for the company that is trying to make money from it. We're evolving out of and into the niche game at the same time. I don't think you are going to find many big or well known companies making a stake on niche MMOs anymore. Similarly, I think a lot of smaller developers/indies/1st time devs are going to find large success in those areas.

    I don't see any of this happening with subscriptions though, so as to how it will impact their bottom line and thus the market to follow is up in the air.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-02-22 at 09:32 PM.
    BAD WOLF

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm not sure that I like them myself, but I envision a lot of progressive changes that aren't necessarily bad for MMOs. A lot of people who want a hardcore niche game would choke on their tongues to read my ideas, but at some point you have to look at what's happening outside of our particular MMO boxes.

    I am definitely getting less and less hardcore as time goes on, simply because I don't have the time. For every legion of teens and tweens that could monopolize their time with games that ask that of them, there is an ever growing population of adults that just can't do that anymore. As every 4-6 years passes, the audience that has less time for MMOs grows while the audience who has all the time in the world for them remains fairly constant.

    More than anything you can probably point to that fact of aging as to why MMOs will have to evolve instead of cycling through their past.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 04:32 PM ----------


    It is for the company that is trying to make money from it. We're evolving out of and into the niche game at the same time? I don't think you are going to find many big or well known companies making a stake on niche MMOs anymore. Similarly, I think a lot of smaller developers/indies/1st time devs are going to find large success in those areas.

    I don't see any of this happening with subscriptions though, so as to how it will impact their bottom line and thus the market to follow is up in the air.
    If MMOs appealed to people who had tons of time back in the day, why can't the same be true now? Just because those particular gamers may have moved on doesn't mean a new crop can't take their place in the market.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    If MMOs appealed to people who had tons of time back in the day, why can't the same be true now? Just because those particular gamers may have moved on doesn't mean a new crop can't take their place in the market.
    Because that's a much smaller market than the current MMO market. The biggest market will always be the "casual" crowd, so if you want to achieve the most financial success, you're going to be developing the game with that crowd, and all their idiosyncrasies, in mind.

  14. #134
    @KV
    I question the thinking of people like you who seem to think MMOs 'progressing' to a more and more casual state is the way to go. The MMOs that are remembered are almost always hardcore, UO and EQ being the big ones. Even Runescape and EVE have endured much longer than many of these other MMOs out there. WoW clearly found a sweet spot in pushing things a little more casual with Vanilla, but that game has lost subs as it pushed the casual culture into overdrive. I just don't know how people have become so enamored with this 'casual is the way of the future' mentality. What casual game has ever really dominated the market and given any reason to think they are superior? And don't say WoW cause that game has lost 3 million subs since they went to EZ-mode.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 05:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Because that's a much smaller market than the current MMO market. The biggest market will always be the "casual" crowd, so if you want to achieve the most financial success, you're going to be developing the game with that crowd, and all their idiosyncrasies, in mind.
    Anything to back up that statement other than conjecture?
    Last edited by ShimmerSwirl; 2013-02-22 at 10:09 PM.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Anything to back up that statement other than conjecture?
    Without digging up data (a bit drunk as it's my final day at my current job), broader market trends in gaming. "Core" gamers are being marginalized slightly as the broader gaming industry (at least the mass market bits) aim more fore the "casual dudebro" audience that doesn't fit into the "core" group, just as the "core" MMO group that had/has the time for massive investments into the game is the smaller audience for MMO's. If you look at the trends of MMO's (WoW from classic -> now, GW2, SWTOR etc) they all trend towards accessibility and ease of play. They trend towards activities that require short term time investments rather than long-term commitments.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Without digging up data (a bit drunk as it's my final day at my current job), broader market trends in gaming. "Core" gamers are being marginalized slightly as the broader gaming industry (at least the mass market bits) aim more fore the "casual dudebro" audience that doesn't fit into the "core" group, just as the "core" MMO group that had/has the time for massive investments into the game is the smaller audience for MMO's. If you look at the trends of MMO's (WoW from classic -> now, GW2, SWTOR etc) they all trend towards accessibility and ease of play. They trend towards activities that require short term time investments rather than long-term commitments.
    I definitely acknowledge the trend is towards ease of play and accessibility, my quesion is why? WoW has been going steadily downhill the more casual it has become, swtor was a failure, GW2 is a decent game but certainly not a world beater...I mean I could see if for instance if WoW went ultra casual and their subs exploded to 20 million and other companies say, "Hmm it looks like casual is the way to go." But when WoW suffers from their casual approach, and other MMOs that try the same come out just decent at best, I just don't get where the proof lies that this is the way to go.

    I just don't think casual and MMO mix. Thinking of it in a conceptual sence, casual gamers are consumers, they come and go, play the hot game of the month and move on. If they get bored they don't wait things out, they just quit. MMOs are a enormous, long term, multi-year, very expensive investments. What sense does it make to produce that type of game if you target audience is one that will only play your game for a month or two? Swtor is the obvious example of that scenario coming true, but I don't see how any ultra casual MMO can justify that resource use for targeting such a flaky demographic.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I definitely acknowledge the trend is towards ease of play and accessibility, my quesion is why?
    It boils down to cost. AAA MMOs are too expensive to produce to aim them at a niche market solely.

    The MMOs that have succeed appealing to a niche market have been AA MMOs which either have low operational costs or leverage some other tech to subsidize development. Such as Eve, Rift or Guild Wars 1.

    Quality of product is largely irrelevant to popularity of a product in the mass market. Most games are produced to what is called a "min spec". Which means the minimally acceptable shipping product. From there it is mostly marketing and mind share.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It boils down to cost. AAA MMOs are too expensive to produce to aim them at a niche market solely.

    The MMOs that have succeed appealing to a niche market have been AA MMOs which either have low operational costs or leverage some other tech to subsidize development. Such as Eve, Rift or Guild Wars 1.

    Quality of product is largely irrelevant to popularity of a product in the mass market. Most games are produced to what is called a "min spec". Which means the minimally acceptable shipping product. From there it is mostly marketing and mind share.
    I would argue casual gamers are essentially a niche market. Not in size, but in level of commitment. Why produce a game in a genre that is built of the premise of long-term play at any cost if your target audience isn't going to play it for any length of time? Somewhere along the way people somehow forgot who actually plays games: people who like to play games! Marketing a MMO to your average joe 'casual gamer (aka people who play Farmville on FB)' is like trying to sell a Sports Illustrated subscription to a guy who doesn't like sports. Even if you get him to signup he's going to be cancelling after the first couple issues go unread.
    You don't sell meat to vegetarians, you don't sell snow plows to people in Ethiopia, why do companies try to sell games to people who don't play them?

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  19. #139
    Casual players will play a game for many years. They just won't put up with 7-8 hour play sessions nightly or obtuse play systems.

    Also not all casual gamers are farmville players. The casual video game player is the majority video gamer player. They play Halo, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Diablo 3, Madden, Fifa, Assassin Creed, Mass Effect, League of Legends.

    Those are games aimed at the mass market, which is a casual game market. Not coincidentally, they are some of the most profitable titles ever created in the industry. Some so much so they dominate their genre without equal or exception.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-02-23 at 12:17 AM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    You don't sell meat to vegetarians, you don't sell snow plows to people in Ethiopia, why do companies try to sell games to people who don't play them?
    You're atempting to tap into a new market. Your current one is full, you've leveled off and your shareholders want more growth. Since you can't expand your current market, you've got to find new ways to get another to come to you, or you impose on it.

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