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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Without hit and exp you would just heavily stack the most stat you need the most

    Its like or used to be why tanks had to balance parry and dodge so they didnt stack too much of either to avoid diminishing returns

    Hit is what makes caring about stats mean something

    Wow is a numbers game part of the fun is crunching numbers and micro managing ever single digit of your character now we all know blizz has been trying to move away from this but i cant see them abandoning altogether
    Last edited by Peaky Blinder; 2012-12-26 at 02:14 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    ^ The issue to me is not one of 'complexity' but rather one of annoyance, given that it seems counter-intuitive for a state to be punitive if it is above or below a certain level.
    I don't know, with all the resources available, I really don't even see the annoyance of it. With an addon like reforgelite, and browsing the first page of a google search of your choice, reforging, gemming, and enchanting become little of an issue. Reforgelite: you pick one of the presets, double check the stat priorities(and set to specified markers if you choose), hit calculate, show, accept, and it literally does everything for you. You just sit there and wait for it to finish. It can be pricey, as it might change every piece of reforging, but at this point in the game gold is not an issue(coming from someone who always never seemed to have enough gold as a raider, that's saying something). Gems, enchants...most slots are pretty obvious, but nonetheless that information is out there too.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Don't really see a problem here.

    If you're annoyed by reforging, just DL the addon "Reforge lite", punch in the correct stat weights (often they are already pre programmed) and let it do the reforging for you. That way, implementing a new piece into my setup takes me all about 10 seconds.
    The problem is that "Download an addon and have that sort it out for you" isn't interesting and not very fun either, but that is what it has come down to, and that's why it would just be better to forget about both of the stats and put less of the other secondary stats on gear, because that's the only thing hit and expertise do: make it so gear doesn't give the amount of stat-points itemlevel indicates it should...

  4. #24
    I think the solution to this should be to change hit so it can't be capped in "real world". But how would you do that? Significantly rising miss chance will just piss off players.
    Bring back partial resists?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    The problem is that "Download an addon and have that sort it out for you" isn't interesting and not very fun either, but that is what it has come down to, and that's why it would just be better to forget about both of the stats and put less of the other secondary stats on gear, because that's the only thing hit and expertise do: make it so gear doesn't give the amount of stat-points itemlevel indicates it should...
    I disagree. I think both Hit and Expertise are very interesting stats that impact the effect of your abilities from a different aspect. Personally, I'd rather see them balanced with the other DPS stats (i.e. they are pretty much OP stats now), and then make it so you can't cap them. That way, they are not the "required to cap before anything else" stats anymore.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 03:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    I think the solution to this should be to change hit so it can't be capped in "real world". But how would you do that? Significantly rising miss chance will just piss off players.
    Bring back partial resists?
    Raise Miss by 5%, and give Hit DR. Or something like that. There are many ways to do it without pissing everyone off.

  6. #26
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I hope hit goes away. having to reforge all my gear after getting one new piece is annoying as hell.
    It is easy, it just those people who force themselves to use the new pieces instantly in the same raid they got them that I think have a problem with it. I mean you just got it why are you rushing to replace your current piece this second...wait for the raid to end first!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Raise Miss by 5%, and give Hit DR. Or something like that. There are many ways to do it without pissing everyone off.
    This kind of a scenario would require the addition of miss immunity on certain abilities and mechanics, either as a baseline or after a soft cap. It would also be reasonable to turn misses into partial resists after a soft cap, or multiple classes and abilities would have to be adjusted.

    Taking hit as it is and making it impossible to cap would break everything.

  8. #28
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Your first solution will then make expertise go the same way in due course so isn't actually a solution at all, just it won't happen immediately. Your second one sounds similar to what I believe is already going on with other stats?

    Just leave it as it is to be honest, if it ain't broke don't fix it. The reason for the healer ones not missing is due to the mana regen nature of it or just the playstyle or even leveling. Makes perfect sense really.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    This kind of a scenario would require the addition of miss immunity on certain abilities and mechanics, either as a baseline or after a soft cap. It would also be reasonable to turn misses into partial resists after a soft cap, or multiple classes and abilities would have to be adjusted.

    Taking hit as it is and making it impossible to cap would break everything.
    Why would miss immunity be required for anything? I don't see how anything would break other than all the current sims that assume hit and exp cap. They would just need to be updated.

  10. #30
    I don´t see it gone or changed in the near future. Fine as it is.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Why would miss immunity be required for anything? I don't see how anything would break other than all the current sims that assume hit and exp cap. They would just need to be updated.
    Many abilities are far too punishing to miss as it is now, situationally even more so. Classes would have to be adjusted a lot and the benefits of such randomness are arguable.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Many abilities are far too punishing to miss as it is now, situationally even more so. Classes would have to be adjusted a lot and the benefits of such randomness are arguable.
    I think you over-exaggerate the impact. There are no single abilities that would significantly impact your overall damage done on a raid boss if it missed once. The real impact is the people are so used to consistency that the RNG would make them cry.

    Also, there are easy things that can be implemented to prevent getting too screwed by RNG - such as resetting the CD if a more critical ability misses that has a large CD. Stuff like that. You just need to think creatively.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I think you over-exaggerate the impact. There are no single abilities that would significantly impact your overall damage done on a raid boss if it missed once. The real impact is the people are so used to consistency that the RNG would make them cry.
    Crowd control and related abilities missing can be critical. Some classes also have aspects to them like the stacks as an arcane mage that would be unnecessarily annoying with the added chance of missing. Situationally the effect would have the potential to be even more notable; the smaller the time window is, the larger the consequences would be.

    All this would be even worse in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Also, there are easy things that can be implemented to prevent getting too screwed by RNG - such as resetting the CD if a more critical ability misses that has a large CD. Stuff like that. You just need to think creatively.
    While it might give the game more depth in a sense, I am not seeing this kind of added randomness as a beneficial change in the numbers game that World of Warcraft is. Give me partial resists after a soft cap and I'm more open to the idea.

  14. #34
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Not hit, expertise is. Only melee uses expertise, it only involves dodge, and can easily rolled into hit. Plus most casters already gain hit from expertise. Boom, one less stat to worry about.
    Last edited by Slowpoke is a Gamer; 2012-12-26 at 06:30 PM.
    You don't create "justice" by destroying. That includes buildings, cars, or the careers of the people you want "justice" for.


  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Crowd control and related abilities missing can be critical. Some classes also have aspects to them like the stacks as an arcane mage that would be unnecessarily annoying with the added chance of missing. Situationally the effect would have the potential to be even more notable; the smaller the time window is, the larger the consequences would be.

    All this would be even worse in PvP.

    While it might give the game more depth in a sense, I am not seeing this kind of added randomness as a beneficial change in the numbers game that World of Warcraft is. Give me partial resists after a soft cap and I'm more open to the idea.
    We could go back and forth over theoretical details forever. The point I was just trying to make is that there are ways to implement it if it was really warranted. Partial resists is another way to implement it. Overall, there are a bunch of different ways to adjust Hit/Exp so that there is no hard cap.

    I just think that removing the stats is not a good solution. Hit and Expertise are interesting stats that add a dynamic to the game which other stats do not.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodaway View Post
    I like how Rift does it. You have certain pieces that have hit and you are required to have a certain amount of hit before you can enter each tier of dungeons or raiding. This leads to a more natural progression along the tiers.
    This sounds terrible if you are unlucky and dont drop the pieces with hit youre stuck on the lower tiers, also that seens awefully like an artificial way fo gatting players.

    I kinda like hit and expertise but Id prefer if the cascade that happens when you get a new armor piece with/whithout hit or expertise could be mitigated somehow.

  17. #37
    Removing them causes any class that generates resources through use of skills... which is like 80%+ of specs... would be negatively impacted to the point they would be re-engineering how these classes work. Hit and for non-casters, Expertise, serve the function of giving you consistency by eliminating misses/dodges. Partial resist existed before. That brings the whole Resist system back in that Blizzard just removed (or rather, depreciated... the stats exist and such still, just only older items have an impact to them).

    Analyzing as a single hit basis, Crit/Haste/Mastery all give a bigger DPS gain, cause they improve the potential for damage. Hit/Exp are about sustainability and consistency. They don't make your numbers bigger, they just make your numbers show up with more reliability. You COULD run with 0% Hit/Exp, and on a per-hit basis, your damage would be likely higher. But on a per-fight basis, you'd be lower.

    It has it's intricacies, it just sucks that it's value over cap is worthless. That element Blizzard has said they don't really like, but haven't found any sort of real solution. Otherwise, things are generally fine right now. They may not be elegant, but they serve a purpose, whether you like it or not.
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  18. #38
    Its more annoying to have to work out what you would get from your new item and compensate because of it. Reforging has fixed a lot of issues.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    We could go back and forth over theoretical details forever. The point I was just trying to make is that there are ways to implement it if it was really warranted. Partial resists is another way to implement it. Overall, there are a bunch of different ways to adjust Hit/Exp so that there is no hard cap.
    I'm along the same lines. I only went on the defensive because of the suggestion regarding not being able to avoid hard misses. While it fits many other games, in WoW as it is we would have a potential clusterf in our hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I just think that removing the stats is not a good solution. Hit and Expertise are interesting stats that add a dynamic to the game which other stats do not.
    I agree.

    Overall it is worth asking if there is much of a reason to adjust the stat system if it's not broken. It is not the most interesting or dynamic of all the RPGs around, but it works, for now.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Astrobandaid View Post
    neither. it's fine how it is
    It is pretty fail that 1 upgrade can mean you have to reforge every piece of gear you own. It's not a good system.

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