Are rogues the slowest 'initiation' class in pve?

[Deleted]

That's how dps is on a síngle target fight:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor.../7/30/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Emp...11100000000000

And that's how it looks on Cleave fights:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...11100000000000

So i wonder what yopu are talking about. Rogues are by far the strongest melee ingame. Enhancers are weaker on nearly every fight except for windlord (because they have a little higher AOE).

All this leads to following Spec Scores:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10100000000000

As you can see, who is nr. 1 and 2 by far?

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 12:32 PM ----------



We can also see that one rogue is clearly ahead top on burst. So what do you want to tell us?

Simcraft shows Assa burst a little in the middle, but not really bad. It peaks at 278k, enhancers at 291k. Boominks 350k.

First of all, hello.

Secondly, I'm not sure Imperial is the best boss to look at parses of, because of the Mind Control. So lets scrap that.

Also, your spec score link shows Combat above Assassination, I'm not sure how the spec score is calculated but does that mean Combat does more DPS than Assassination? Seems unlikely to me.

And as said above, Raidbot takes the Median DPS I believe? WoL ranks shows Warriors to be beating Rogues on a lot of fights i.e http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Fury_Warrior/

I chose Feng as the example because it's arguably the most accurate single target fight in this tier for looking at logs. There is some AoE to mix things up but meh what can you do.

The Thread is about Rogue burst so I'd like to get back to that and maybe in a different, more relevant thread we can discuss who is the best melee DPS class at the moment.

Just quickly, you say Rogues are by far the strongest melee in game, I don't think 'by far' is accurate whatsoever.

Here are the bosses you linked, but instead of Default Measure, I set it to 95th Percentile, showing the top 5%.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor.../all/7/30/p95/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Emp...11100000000000

Only 1 (Grand Empress which is COMBAT) shows Rogues on top, and this is from parses of people who clearly show they know how to play there class. The Thread focuses on Assassination, of which that spec doesn't parse #1 on any encounter I looked at in the entire tier.

[Deleted]

Honestly the bigger issue leading to rogues being SO far ahead on "all parses" (we're doing quite well, but with less of a lead on most, if we hold the lead at all on top 100), is that assassination is just really easy. You can plan 5-20 seconds ahead in your mind just by paying halfway decent attention, and it's really not difficult. Worse, screwing up doesn't cost you much (to borrow Ta'yak, average to top 100 is a 9.5k gap - which is both a play level AND gear change). By comparison, fury warriors pay dearly for mistakes like not aligning RB/Execute in their Reckbanners, and can make plenty of rotational mistakes that add up to more of a loss (to borrow Ta'yak again, 14k disparity from all to top 100). When you leave melee the discrepancy can get even larger - but of course this will only highlight disparities in highly played specs. Enhancement isn't, in my experience, popular this expansion, and while it's not at the front of the train, it's not the redheaded stepchild of DPS, but there aren't enough H progression enhancers to make it show. I can't speak entirely definitively on where other melee stand, but our single target is "fine". I'd consider it a bonus if we could target swap on a dime (primarily/only an issue from rupture).

Rogues are fine, but played well* almost all melee are doing fine. My DPS target is a cat (on most fights; on Elegon my warlock cheats - and he will continue to be my target when shred/rip aren't bugged anymore). Whether or not rogues are "the top" will really rise to the edge of knowledge once we have a lot of rogues, DKs, cats, and warriors in BiS. Obviously there will be fights with distinct advantages for different classes (and until we see a partial reversion of the BF nerf, the rogue no longer has a cleave, just the rupture multi-dot), but across all fights, rogues are in the top tier (especially on average!).

To the original topic again, Silk, the opening, depending on the fight, may or may not matter. I do wish we had either a harder opening or a harder execute, because both come in handy, but c'est la vie? The only fights that come to mind immediately where the opening burst is really important are Feng and Bladelord Ta'yak, but neither of them are really difficult either, so... I don't think we'll hurt that much, pet peeves aside.

Now what?

Even taking onky top 100 logs, only warriors pull ahead.

If they should rework and rebalance warriors? Possibly.

But rogues are not doing bad, they are doing very good and a few warriors played to the cutting edge with a lot of crit luck, possibly even pushed by tricks and unholy frenzy won't change all this.


Data is showing rogues being the best melee dps, with having trouble beating very well played warriors with crit luck. That's it.

Rogues problem is surely not a dps problem. It's the playstyle they don't like.

[Kael]

Rogues problem is surely not a dps problem. It's the playstyle they don't like.

They also dislike DPS distribution, or at least some of us do, but I don't see who was arguing that rogue DPS is bad...?

I know you've wanted to mention how great rogue DPS is before, and I'm still not disagreeing that rogues are fine on DPS charts, but what prompted the argument?

Edit: ah, found it again. It's really tangential to the central topic, though. If you wanted to go through a formal analysis of data available to "place" rogues in the DPS (or even sub-culture of melee-DPS), that'd be an interesting idea for another thread.

[Deleted]

First of all, hello.

Secondly, I'm not sure Imperial is the best boss to look at parses of, because of the Mind Control. So lets scrap that.

Also, your spec score link shows Combat above Assassination, I'm not sure how the spec score is calculated but does that mean Combat does more DPS than Assassination? Seems unlikely to me.

And as said above, Raidbot takes the Median DPS I believe? WoL ranks shows Warriors to be beating Rogues on a lot of fights i.e http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Fury_Warrior/

I chose Feng as the example because it's arguably the most accurate single target fight in this tier for looking at logs. There is some AoE to mix things up but meh what can you do.

The Thread is about Rogue burst so I'd like to get back to that and maybe in a different, more relevant thread we can discuss who is the best melee DPS class at the moment.

Just quickly, you say Rogues are by far the strongest melee in game, I don't think 'by far' is accurate whatsoever.

Here are the bosses you linked, but instead of Default Measure, I set it to 95th Percentile, showing the top 5%.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor.../all/7/30/p95/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Emp...11100000000000

Only 1 (Grand Empress which is COMBAT) shows Rogues on top, and this is from parses of people who clearly show they know how to play there class. The Thread focuses on Assassination, of which that spec doesn't parse #1 on any encounter I looked at in the entire tier.

Yeah. Picking up those top logs makes really a lot of sense...

First of all, an encounter with mind control can hurt anyone. So rogues are getting mind controlled, but so do warriors.

Second: assa doesn't have the highest skill cap, we all know it. For that low skill required, they are performing great. But you can't jsut say: oh yeah, world dps rank 1 is a warrior, nerf warriors!

What shpudl they do? Buff rogues even more, so they pull even more ahead in mediocre or bad raids? Why sould be a assa rogue in a mediocre raid be totally overpowered?

They would need a redesign to make rogues more difficult to play.



So why do we see warrior pulling ahead in the best 5% and rogues being king of all melees in the other 95%?

Perhaps because rogues have a more steady dps, less RNG, while warrios dps may jump due to crit luck.

So say a combat goue does 100k, 105k, 100k dps on the same fight three id's after another, with the same gear. Another warrior might get 95k, 90k, 110k.

So the rogue does more damage on average, the warrior will be the one ranking top for one lucky try.

It's the same problem for fire, where you simply do 20% on alucky try because you simply crit more often.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 02:49 PM ----------

They also dislike DPS distribution, or at least some of us do, but I don't see who was arguing that rogue DPS is bad...?

I know you've wanted to mention how great rogue DPS is before, and I'm still not disagreeing that rogues are fine on DPS charts, but what prompted the argument?

Edit: ah, found it again. It's really tangential to the central topic, though. If you wanted to go through a formal analysis of data available to "place" rogues in the DPS (or even sub-culture of melee-DPS), that'd be an interesting idea for another thread.

Oh someone was telling that warrior, enhancer and ferals were top melee dps, not rogues. Just a wrong statement, as data shows.

One thing all those logs show is also that rogues dps is very reliable. You need a dps doing your 100k dps, a rogue does it, every try again and again. A fire mage might just be doing one time 110k dps, another try just 85k dps, just ebcause he has crit luck or not. Picking up the top 5% logs is surely no way to prove a specc is underpowered. It only might show that some classes have more RNG or a higher skill cap. Fire and Fury have both.

[Deleted]

Second: assa doesn't have the highest skill cap, we all know it. For that low skill required, they are performing great. But you can't jsut say: oh yeah, world dps rank 1 is a warrior, nerf warriors!

So why do we see warrior pulling ahead in the best 5% and rogues being king of all melees in the other 95%?

Perhaps because rogues have a more steady dps, less RNG, while warrios dps may jump due to crit luck.

So say a combat goue does 100k, 105k, 100k dps on the same fight three id's after another, with the same gear. Another warrior might get 95k, 90k, 110k.

So the rogue does more damage on average, the warrior will be the one ranking top for one lucky try.

It's the same problem for fire, where you simply do 20% on alucky try because you simply crit more often.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 02:49 PM ----------


Oh someone was telling that warrior, enhancer and ferals were top melee dps, not rogues. Just a wrong statement, as data shows.

One thing all those logs show is also that rogues dps is very reliable. You need a dps doing your 100k dps, a rogue does it, every try again and again. A fire mage might just be doing one time 110k dps, another try just 85k dps, just ebcause he has crit luck or not. Picking up the top 5% logs is surely no way to prove a specc is underpowered. It only might show that some classes have more RNG or a higher skill cap. Fire and Fury have both.

First of all, Blizzard have said many times they don't want DPS to be based on how hard the rotation is, so there goes that idea.

Earlier in the post I said rogues were top of melee and someone pointed out well actually Warriors, DK's and Shamans are doing 'better'. Yes they are, on some fights. Some fights they are not. I chose to take the top 5% all of those logs will probably include extremely how Crit chances, and whilst yes higher Crit may benefit a Warrior more, what about Shamans and DKs? They both parsed higher than Rogues on some fights but you chose to leave them out of your response... I don't know why.

However, I agree with what you say that Rogue DPS is reliable, it is, because it's easy. That's the problem/good thing. As mentioned earlier, people get bored of easy specs. But, some people like an easy rotation because it means they can sustain there best DPS even whilst learning a new encounter. I'm not trying to create any argument, just a polite discussion.

I'm not guru of WoW and just because I've said something doesn't mean it's true, that's the case for most people. However, I did feel I justified what I said via those logs displaying the top 5% i.e The 'Better' and/or 'Lucky' people.

[Deleted]

I'll happily trade my 300k burst for your 100k+ sustained on single target.

[Deleted]

I'll happily trade my 300k burst for your 100k+ sustained on single target.

/Thread in my eyes

[Deleted]

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding comparison of logs and simulations and what conclusions can be drawn from them. Instead of looking at absolute top parses (too much RNG) from high-end encounters (not enough data), here's a snapshot from one of my internal spreadsheets that should give a better picture:



PS: I don't suggest that those figures are indicative of overall performance in MoP. But they do tell a story of rogues being in the thick of things.

[shadowboy]

It's even worse if you for some reason get knocked out of stealth before you can initiate... I just don't understand; Feral druids, whose resource system and dps-rotation is nigh completely identical to ours, essentially have a "free 12 sec Slice and Dice" glyph, which allows them to instantly throw it up before/during the pull. Their Slice and Dice is, literally, free! Why can't we have that?!

They don't have relentless strikes, and the closest thing they have to it costs them a talent point and gives back 4 energy per talent point spent, that is 0 energy on a 0CP savage roar. They also have to sacrifice a glyph slot to get that 0 CP savage roar. I wouldn't call this bucket list of limitations "free."

Topic at hand: Opening burst rarely matters more than sustained dps in the grand scheme of things. The only time opening burst really matters at all is any encounter were frequent encounter mechanics interrupt burst windows after the initial few seconds of the fight (think ultrax, where you have 45 secs of no fading light or hour of twilight).

[Deleted]

I'll happily trade my 300k burst for your 100k+ sustained on single target.

That had to be said, and I said the same thing in a different topic a week orso ago as well. Classes that deal with upfront burst damage and peak off straight after are difficult to deal with. If you mess up your opening rotation or if the boss goes into some sort of immune phase during your burst cooldowns, your DPS will drop like a stone. If you do everything correctly you will look good on recount for a few seconds and then drop to normal levels in line with the other classes. Classes like Rogues (Assassination mainly) are just always at their peak after just a few seconds. They won't drop down, it only goes up during the Execute phase. Basically sustained DPS classed on Patchwerk style fights are superior.

For a class who has used up all their cooldowns and trinkets at the start of a fight certain things get difficult. The sparks on Elegon for example. Frost Death Knights and Rogues can take those down with ease. Now let's compare this to a burst specced and geared Moonkin with a few 2 second casts that hardly dent the spark. However same can be said other way around, if there are fights where something needs to go down quickly those burst classes might have an edge. Spine heroic comes to mind, where mind you, Subtlety Rogues were the top class.

You can debate whether starting with Slice or Rupture is the most optimal way to go

How dare you!?
Using Rupture first is a 4 DPS increase over using Slice and Dice first! Stop spreading false information!

[Lyndonm33]

"How about giving us what the Feral's already have? A glyph that makes Slice and Dice free, without any combo point cost, for a 12 second duration."


i like this

[Deleted]

Well, we are by far the least played class now and even Blizzard admitted as much in today's tweets. So there is that.
Wouln't hurt us to buff us a little.

[Deleted]

Well, we are by far the least played class now and even Blizzard admitted as much in today's tweets. So there is that.
Wouln't hurt us to buff us a little.

We don't need a buff. We're already competitive for PvE and with the upcoming nerfs to other classes/buffs to us (never mind the increased scaling with gear) we'll probably be PvP viable again as well. So no, we don't really need buffs... We need changes.

The class is simply uninteresting, not unique enough anymore, and, for PvE, unimportant. We need a Warlock-esque rework if we are to increase in numbers.

[SilkDath]

We don't need a buff. We're already competitive for PvE and with the upcoming nerfs to other classes/buffs to us (never mind the increased scaling with gear) we'll probably be PvP viable again as well. So no, we don't really need buffs... We need changes.

The class is simply uninteresting, not unique enough anymore, and, for PvE, unimportant. We need a Warlock-esque rework if we are to increase in numbers.

Agree 100%, I love the idea of a rogue class, sneaking, poisons, shadows, and in pve we are competitive, just a bit slow to get off the ground in fights.

My big issue is that we are so passive, nearly all our damage comes from things we have no control over, a lot of the time my damage from DP/IP is greater than 40%, even more when Venomous Wounds is added in.

I guess I just want DnD style rogues, gigantic crit multipliers ftw

[Sengiratolom]

Every spec has rng components in their dps system that can make or break an attempt on WoL rankings, the more burst potential someone has (stormlash+skullbanner+ hero/bl+pot+trinket procs+glove tinker+weapon enchs+personal cds) the more the crit and procrates during that nuke phase affect the fight average, aswell as how many of those allign with the next time you have your personal burst cds.
Even if you get favourable rng, the log only provides rankings if you down the boss that attempt, i had a couple of attempts of windlord hc with 410k+ (fight average, peaked over 550k fight average in the 1st burn) at the start of the 2nd burnphase (on heroic a killed add pack leaves a debuff on the boss that increases his dmg taken for a short time), if the boss had died that attempt, with nearly 2 full burn phases to go, that would have resulted in 450k-490k, and thereby producing a WOL top 5 rank, perhaps even r1 for enhancement. But sadly some1 stepped on a windbomb or the tank got killed, so those atempts didn't end up being wol ranks.
On the latest kill, same point in the fight (start of 2nd burnphase) I had 350k ish average and got the amber debuff= had to run out and spend 10sec in a block of amber before some1 freed me, thereby missing out on the raid cds during the burnphase. Ended around 375k dps on the kill due to the bad procs/crits in the 1st burnphase and the fight mechanic screwing me over in the 2nd+slow responces from ppl around me. 350k ish fight average at the 2nd burnphase start, dropping to about 300k during it due to the debuff, rising to 375k ish in the 3rd.

At the same time our dw frost dk dps was quite steady throughout the attempts due to constant howling blasts dpsing the boss and adds, his burst in the burnphase however had less of an impact (alot lower dps peaks on logs, around 500k-800k dps during burns, oposed to the 600k-2m peaks i had there) on the fight average and thereby the rng during it had less of an impact on possible ranks. He ended up with like 365k fight average on the kill, and had a similar number on other attempts (give or take 15k).

While windlord hc is a super inflated burst fight, it is a good way to illustrate the impact of a burst heavy spec oposed to a steady dps spec, while the steady dpser benefits less from the proc/crit rng, it also suffers less from it. The burst heavy spec on the other hand has a larger rng based margin. Dps being spikey is a rank vulnerability, as it the rng during those spikes has more of an impact to the end dps, then the execution itself, the steady dpser has that inverted, execution>rng for them due to the absence of larger spikes.

As gear levels equalise, the steady dpsers will claim ranks mainly based on individual skill, the burst centered ones will claim them from rng as equally geared and skilled ppl can be 15% apart on non gimmick fights.

[theturn]

ret has a slow start aswell.

hp generator -> hp generator -> hp generator -> inquisition -> hp generator -> hp generator -> hp generator -> first TV or another hp generator (depends on cds)

etc.

If you are having problems with bursting in openers as a pally you are doing it wrong. My friend is always number one on pulls. Though when his cds are gone so is his dps.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 02:11 PM ----------

First of all, hello.

Secondly, I'm not sure Imperial is the best boss to look at parses of, because of the Mind Control. So lets scrap that.

Also, your spec score link shows Combat above Assassination, I'm not sure how the spec score is calculated but does that mean Combat does more DPS than Assassination? Seems unlikely to me.

And as said above, Raidbot takes the Median DPS I believe? WoL ranks shows Warriors to be beating Rogues on a lot of fights i.e http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Fury_Warrior/

I chose Feng as the example because it's arguably the most accurate single target fight in this tier for looking at logs. There is some AoE to mix things up but meh what can you do.

The Thread is about Rogue burst so I'd like to get back to that and maybe in a different, more relevant thread we can discuss who is the best melee DPS class at the moment.

Just quickly, you say Rogues are by far the strongest melee in game, I don't think 'by far' is accurate whatsoever.

Here are the bosses you linked, but instead of Default Measure, I set it to 95th Percentile, showing the top 5%.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor.../all/7/30/p95/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Emp...11100000000000

Only 1 (Grand Empress which is COMBAT) shows Rogues on top, and this is from parses of people who clearly show they know how to play there class. The Thread focuses on Assassination, of which that spec doesn't parse #1 on any encounter I looked at in the entire tier.

Sims always show rogues higher because it assumes 100% up-time on boss which will make rogues look good because we have so much passive dmg. However the flip side that coin is when we aren't on the boss we lose alot of our passive dmg. Real results are the only ones worth looking at.

Rogues are not at the bottom of the meters by any means but neither are we at the top.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 02:17 PM ----------

I'll happily trade my 300k burst for your 100k+ sustained on single target.

Ok just as soon as we get to that level lets trade, though if we are that level odds are whatever class you are will also be at that level since rogues are mid pack currently.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 02:26 PM ----------

First of all, Blizzard have said many times they don't want DPS to be based on how hard the rotation is, so there goes that idea.

Earlier in the post I said rogues were top of melee and someone pointed out well actually Warriors, DK's and Shamans are doing 'better'. Yes they are, on some fights. Some fights they are not. I chose to take the top 5% all of those logs will probably include extremely how Crit chances, and whilst yes higher Crit may benefit a Warrior more, what about Shamans and DKs? They both parsed higher than Rogues on some fights but you chose to leave them out of your response... I don't know why.

However, I agree with what you say that Rogue DPS is reliable, it is, because it's easy. That's the problem/good thing. As mentioned earlier, people get bored of easy specs. But, some people like an easy rotation because it means they can sustain there best DPS even whilst learning a new encounter. I'm not trying to create any argument, just a polite discussion.

I'm not guru of WoW and just because I've said something doesn't mean it's true, that's the case for most people. However, I did feel I justified what I said via those logs displaying the top 5% i.e The 'Better' and/or 'Lucky' people.

The top 5% also probably have similar gear. I'm sure I can find my name on several fights in logs but I am by no means highly geared. Also fights like emperor, or the troll are useless when it comes to meters because of the way the fight works. Feng is probably the best single target fight to look at.

[Deleted]

@Theturn

Hence why I said earlier that Feng was the best boss to look at. I didn't look at sims, I looked at logs of boss kills.

[Demeia]

/Thread in my eyes

Yes, definitely, if the thread was "we need to do better at the start of the fight." However, if this thread is actually just curious about how we measure up at the start of the fight, that's worth some pursuit, at least in an academic way. I do feel a little slow sometimes and I worry that I may be buggering up my rotation at the start.

[Deleted]

Yes, definitely, if the thread was "we need to do better at the start of the fight." However, if this thread is actually just curious about how we measure up at the start of the fight, that's worth some pursuit, at least in an academic way. I do feel a little slow sometimes and I worry that I may be buggering up my rotation at the start.

Did you see what I quoted? It was someone saying they would happily trade there 300k+ burst for our 100k+ sustained damage...

A lot of our burst at the start is dependent on procs i.e Trinkets / Weapons / Dispatch. If you don't get them / get them late then your damage will be lower initially.

[Sesshou]

They don't have relentless strikes, and the closest thing they have to it costs them a talent point and gives back 4 energy per talent point spent, that is 0 energy on a 0CP savage roar. They also have to sacrifice a glyph slot to get that 0 CP savage roar. I wouldn't call this bucket list of limitations "free."

Do cats have that many dps gain glyphs or otherwise mandatory ones? I mean our glyphs in general blow and I can easily replace 1 and never notice it on any fight (maybe not the same glyph but whatever). I'd call glyphing as close to free as you can get.

Now no, they dont have RS baseline... so? If its 0 energy and 0 cp RS doesn't do anything anyway.